Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altitude)

[oz_mark]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Plus here is the follow up interview - Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce discusses the airline, and competition in the airline industry as Tiger's suspension continues.

YouTube - ‪Qantas benefits from Tiger woes Inside Business Interview 10 7 2011‬‏

Now that is an interesting interview, particularly with some comments on what is going to be announce in August

 

[rechoboam]

Now that is an interesting interview, particularly with some comments on what is going to be announce in August

What were they?

 

[oz_mark]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

What were they?

This probably whould be in a Qantas thread, but anyway

1) Investment required in the product to ensure it remains a premium carrier
2) What work it can do with its partners
3) What the international network should look like (there were some earlier comments that some of their international routes are profitabl, and some are not)
4) What they can do to particpate more in the growing Asian market.

 

[drron]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Apparently the same pilot involved in both incidents-
Same pilot in Tiger breaches

 

[jb747]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

I totally agree. Tiger admits? to not checking whatever was loaded into the flight profiles - and SHOULD have.
But you have oodles of pilots, and at least one questioning LSALT, you would THINK it would be a top matter for escalation upwards. Technically both are supposed to check. Either no one else bought off this provider, or pilots do not spit the dummy sufficiently when bad settings are spotted having been loaded in.

I think the supplier of those profiles will have a difficult time in the future, but it would be interesting to know if others relied on them, and how many pilots have are overly dependent on 'computer' to get from A to B.
Could some OOL settings also be out - International carriers?

The paper charts, and those within the FMC are provided from different sources. FMC descent limits should be checked against the paper charts by both pilots. Where charts have 'not below' altitudes on them, absolutely nothing forces you to be at that minumum altitude. On the base turn around Epping, 2500-3500 feet makes sense, 2000 does not...unless you are also operating at high airspeed.

 

[Awesom Andy]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

1) Investment required in the product to ensure it remains a premium carrier
2) What work it can do with its partners

So Qantas is going to attempt to be a premium carrier again, but you can only fly on its perhaps relatively not-so-premium partners in most cases... that's going to be a marketing nightmare.

Apparently the same pilot involved in both incidents-
Same pilot in Tiger breaches

In other industries, when an employee makes a serious error, either the employee is retrained/counseled/etc, and/or procedures are updated with all employees retrained based on the new procedures. It appears (although not confirmed) that neither has happened in Tiger, which is, to me, the most worrying aspect.

 

[jakeseven7]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

So Qantas is going to attempt to be a premium carrier again, but you can only fly on its perhaps relatively not-so-premium partners in most cases... that's going to be a marketing nightmare.
.

Not sure what you are trying to say - but they clearly state they want to grow the Qantas brand (no not Jetstar) aggressively overseas.

Looking forward to hearing the announcements in a couple of months.

 

[harvyk]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

In other industries, when an employee makes a serious error, either the employee is retrained/counseled/etc, and/or procedures are updated with all employees retrained based on the new procedures. It appears (although not confirmed) that neither has happened in Tiger, which is, to me, the most worrying aspect.

Thus the reason that TT was hit with a suspension, rather than just the pilot at fault. It’s an indicator of a bigger problem, rather than a one off incident.

 

[Nigelinoz]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Preliminary ATSB report into the June 30 LSALT incident has been released.
Investigation: AO-2011-076 - Operational non-compliance - Airbus A320-232, VH-VNC, 15 km south of Avalon Airport, Vic, 30 June 2011
Cheers
N'oz

 

[ethernet]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Thus the reason that TT was hit with a suspension, rather than just the pilot at fault. It’s an indicator of a bigger problem, rather than a one off incident.

I am having trouble recalling any company being fined 21 plus million dollars (estimated loss for grounding) for the non-fatal negligence of its employees - not even BP or the fireworks factory that went off.
Things are meant to be proportionate let - the punishment fit the crime, but CASA are acting like pirates.
If they are doing a witch hunt, their evidence will not get stronger - its what they had at the time.
Is this without precedent? Plenty of restaurants closed for worse, but back up in a week.
This pilot is ex Emirates.

 

[PineappleSkip]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

---

Um, 1600 feet is a lot closer to the ground than 3000 feet. CASA are not there to protect the reputation or bottom lines of operators, they're there to protect travellers.

If you didn't have the likes of CASA you would have aviation like PNG's where crashes and deaths are, unfortunately, far too common.

Cheers skip

 

[drron]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

I am having trouble recalling any company being fined 21 plus million dollars (estimated loss for grounding) for the non-fatal negligence of its employees - not even BP or the fireworks factory that went off.
Things are meant to be proportionate let - the punishment fit the crime, but CASA are acting like pirates.
If they are doing a witch hunt, their evidence will not get stronger - its what they had at the time.
Is this without precedent? Plenty of restaurants closed for worse, but back up in a week.
This pilot is ex Emirates.

And emirates pilots had a problem with data input at MEL didn't they?

 

[Awesom Andy]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

And emirates pilots had a problem with data input at MEL didn't they?

One-off incidents do happen, although Tiger appears to be having issues that are more regular and systematic.

 

[Major]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

The ATSB has released their preliminary report, including the ATC transcript. Makes interesting reading.

Incident: Tiger A320 near Avalon on Jun 30th 2011, reportedly descended below minimum safe altitude

 

[jb747]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

It will be interesting to see the speed track for this. The approach looks to have been going wrong whilst still on the ILS.

A number of solutions come to mind:
Get approval whilst still on the ILS to join down wind for the circling approach.
Go around, and go back and do the ILS again (a 10 knot downwind on the runway should not be an issue, though it is quite likely to have been much stronger at altitude).
Go around. Track to the south whilst maintaining the aircraft at the cleared altitude (and above the sector safety height). Track to join finals for the VOR, RNAV, or DME arrival. Descend when established on final in accordance with the approach.
Maintain the safety height. Track back to the overhead, and descend within the circling area (which extends 4.2 miles to the north, south and east - but not west) for the runway.

 

[harvyk]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

I am having trouble recalling any company being fined 21 plus million dollars (estimated loss for grounding) for the non-fatal negligence of its employees - not even BP or the fireworks factory that went off.

I'm not sure which fireworks factory your referring to, but with BP that was in an entirely different country. The punishments for a company in a completely different industry, with a completely different type of indicent in a completely different country operating under a completely different set of laws have no bearing as to CASA's actions.

CASA have simply issued a fine in accordance with the aviation laws of this country, which are the only relevant laws in this case.

This pilot is ex Emirates.

What on earth does the pilot being ex EK have anything to do with this? Besides as someone else said, EK don't exactly have a clean record for MEL.

 

[medhead]

There was a south Australian fireworks factory that exploded a few years ago. I can't remember but I think they were put out of business.

 

[harvyk]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

There was a south Australian fireworks factory that exploded a few years ago. I can't remember but I think they were put out of business.

I think I remember that, in any case, it's still a completely different type of incident operating in a completely different industry under a completely different set of laws and regulations.

 

[mannej]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

I find it laughable that it is being suggested that the CASA reaction is over the top because the negligence was not fatal.

Markis, can you suggest the difference between the TT incidents and the D7 incidents (i.e level of punishment etc).

As for busting minimums, just look at the Crossair incident arriving into Zurich or the Korean incident in Guam to see the potential for injury/death.

 

[straitman]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

I find it laughable that it is being suggested that the CASA reaction is over the top because the negligence was not fatal.

Markis, can you suggest the difference between the TT incidents and the D7 incidents (i.e level of punishment etc).

As for busting minimums, just look at the Crossair incident arriving into Zurich or the Korean incident in Guam to see the potential for injury/death.

Just to reiterate and as has been mentioned a few times by a few people there are some things that are not acceptable.

In aviation one of those things is to bust minimas. It does not matter if it was company paperwork or the pilot misreading the let down plates. Put simply if these pilots were doing an instrument rating test or check they would have been given a fail :!: