Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[Pukka]

Tony is not a certainty for pm yet. Let's for fun think of some differences between the parties. TA will abolish the carbon pricing mechanism. Kevin Rudd will merely quarter the price. Both will allow punters to keep the 'compensation' for this non-impost. Tony will give paid maturity leave to working women on up to$150k per annum and levy big business to pay for it. He will strip $500million in car subsidies. Kevin will rejig the tax rules such that up to 300k people will either have to fill in a log book or lose access to salary packaging of a vehicle. Rudd will build fibre to the home Abbott to the node. Rudd will collect relatively small amounts of tax from new entrants to mining. Abbott will not. Rudd will attempt to get States ontoa new funding formula for education. Tony will not but hasn't said how he will distribute education money. Both would like asylum seekers to stop getting on leaky boats but disagree on which punitive measure to use to this end. I'm finding it hard to get overly enthusiastic. Maybe if the Libs can put some more meat on the policy bone there will be some more points of difference but really hard to see a big Telstra sale, Work Choices or GST to give people a genuine decision to make

TA is not ideal on any level but I think KRudd is a non starter. We'll see soon enough hopefully.

 

[quokka77]

In the absence of policy it's a beauty contest. My favourite political cartoon image of Rudd is First Dog on the Moon's portrayal of Kevin's disembodied head as a talking helium filled balloon, held by a minder. David Rowe's rather sordid style does Tony's wiry, hairy, ex pugilist, weekend warrior face and physique all the favours they deserve.

 

[drsmithy]

Facts lol. It's just uber left wing diatribe.

You seem to have a rather odd idea about what "uber left wing" is.

TA is a certainty for PM and you're not going to like what he does but you better get used to the idea and accept that that's what the majority of Australians want.

Heh. You're kidding, right ? His preferred PM results are what ? 30% ? He might end up PM, but trying to argue "that's what the majority of Australians want" is just flat-out delusional.

At least we wouldn't have to worry about letting Kev out in public without a script and minders to shut down any awkward questions.

 

[drron]

Anyway the BBC is confident that Kevvie will not win our election.Apparently a shoe in for PM of Canada-
BBC World News refers to Kevin Rudd as Canadian Prime Minister | News.com.au

 

[drron]

They're not opinions, they're facts.

Being unpopular, makes them no less true, which is the point you seem to be struggling with.

yes it is a fact that both Julia and Kevin call the present Carbon pricing scheme a Carbon tax.
Yes it is a fact that the UN does say people arriving without satisfying the countries entry requirements are illegal.
Just because those facts are not popular with you doesn't make them untrue.

 

[drsmithy]

yes it is a fact that both Julia and Kevin call the present Carbon pricing scheme is a Carbon tax.

Stop moving the goalposts.

Yes it is a fact that thye UN does say people arriving without satisfying the countries entry requirements are illegal.

Please quote and source the relevant articles.

Just because those facts are not popular with you doesn't make them untrue.

Congratulations. Your lack of honesty and integrity are on par with Skyring.

 

[Skyring]

You're basically describing the Liberal party of which you're an unabashed supporter. Why would you sabotage them?

That "Born to rule" notion never existed in the Libs. It's a Labor catchphrase and we're a long way from the Seventies now. Political dynasties - whether by blood or association - have always been as common in labour as anywhere else. The sort of middle-class private school, university upbringing that the phrase once conjured up is now the norm in both sides. Perhaps the Greens more than any other group.

And if it's a mentality, no Liberal who went through the Hawke era, losing election after election, is going to hold it. Nor on the other side when Howard ruled. John Howard, son of a petrol station owner, educated by the State, suburban solicitor - "born to rule". Right.

"Thinking they are morally superior to the Average Joe". I think that describes most of us. Maybe not born that way, but by the time we reach adulthood, whatever cultural, philosophical and moral values we have gained in our education, we are likely to be regard them as superior. Because they are our own. This transcends party, class, culture and ethnicity. Moral vanity is pretty much a given for a human being.

In my experience at any rate, and I've knocked around a bit.

What is interesting about both phrases is the foundation of "should". Things should be a certain way. A certain group should be governing. A certain moral code should govern all. To me, this is attachment, and therefore suspect. Here I find myself in agreement with drron - these sort of views may be demolished with mutual enlightenment as the object.

If we cling to our views and opinions - or if we cling to anything at all, really - then we are saying that we have a more privileged stance than the rest of humanity. Should we refuse food to a starving child because it belongs to us? Is our local football team better than every other one - because it is local? Are the stories we learn in our local religious school more true than what others learn in religious schools on another continent?

 

[Skyring]

Abbott's preferred PM results are what ? 30% ? He might end up PM, but trying to argue "that's what the majority of Australians want" is just flat-out delusional.

Well, let's settle the matter by voting on it, hmmmmmmm?

 

[Skyring]

Election may be months away

KEVIN Rudd has all but ruled out a 31 August election date and is now unlikely to call a poll until at least 21 September - three years and one month after Labor went to the voters in 2010.
Senior government sources said last night Mr Rudd had not decided to call an election this weekend for 31 August despite heated speculation and urging that he do so as soon as possible while his "honeymoon" continued.

Senior government sources, eh? The same folk who told him to go early and are now watching as Rudd's popularity sinks, I'll bet. The same sources who are going to be telling the press all the inside goss all the way down.

They must be tearing their hair out. The ALP didn't pick Rudd as leader because they liked him. Each year they made it clear that they preferred Gillard. They only went to him in desperation because Gillard was going to lead them to an epic defeat and Rudd could save a few seats.

And now, Rudd has cheerfully cemented himself to the captain's chair, nailed his personal flag to the mast, set his course for the G20 and the UN and then to inevitable electoral oblivion.

It's all about Rudd. Any insider will tell you that Rudd isn't a team player. His leadership skills are poor.

And we don't have an autocratic government model. We have government by a council of advisors with the Prime Minister as first among equals.

Rudd just isn't good enough or able enough to be government all by himself. Nobody is.

Rudd has let four election dates go past. If he had called an election after a couple of days in the job, we'd be heading to the polls weekend after next, Rudd's policy announcements would have been part of his campaign, and without much trouble at all, he would have led Labor to a comfortable defeat, which is exactly what he was recruited for.

Nope. That opportunity has gone. Another round of pretty speeches, policy announcements and no actual action. That pretty much sums up Rudd's leadership style.

And we are seeing a lot of criticism of Rudd's policy announcements. The PNG thing is being called unworkable and a disgrace by those in the know. There are massive problems in settling thousands of asylum-seekers in PNG.

I'm predicting that the longer Rudd holds off, the worse things will become. There will be more deaths, more riots, more criticism. And when it comes down to it, Labor is not well regarded as the party to stop the boats. That mantle is firmly over the Coalition hearth.

Rudd's hubris, Rudd's leadership, Rudd's style. It's not going to hang together. In six weeks, Rudd is going to be fronting the world as a limp duck leader, and a month after that he's going to make Gillard look good.

 

[drsmithy]

Well, let's settle the matter by voting on it, hmmmmmmm?

Wouldn't actually answer the question. Australians don't choose the PM (though if we are to believe polling, if we could it would be Turnbull).

 

[drron]

Stop moving the goalposts.
Sorry you are the one moving the goal posts.Those are the facts I had already given before your untrue comment.


Please quote and source the relevant articles.
Skyring has already quoted the source yesterday.In fact he just beat me to it though he quoted Politifact and I went to the relevant charter.


Congratulations. Your lack of honesty and integrity are on par with Skyring.

Well I find Skyring to be quite reasonable.At least he doesn't impugn someone's character just because they don't agree with his views.

 

[medhead]

Well I find Skyring to be quite reasonable.At least he doesn't impugn someone's character just because they don't agree with his views.

Doesn't he?

 

[medhead]

Well here are the facts for the Wide Bay area from the Government statistician-
http://qrsis.oesr.qld.gov.au/pls/qis_public/QIS1110W$UDQCTL1.ProcessActions

You can look at other areas if you wish but they come out just as stated.
so for Wide Bay which includes Hervey bay the median sale price for the year ended June 2008 was 278000.for the year ended December 2012 279000.IE 4.5 years of no real rise.
For units-
http://qrsis.oesr.qld.gov.au/pls/qis_public/QIS1110W$UDQCTL1.ProcessActions

So an apartment's median price was 250000 for the year ending dec 2006.
For the year ending Dec 2012-252800 so basically no rise in 6 years.

PS-since you are so precise about words meaning I presumed you meant anecdotal rather than a treatment for the examples.

Oh the spelling police are here. Winning argument!

So now we have 3 regions. But it is very interesting that you've taken 2006 as a base. What's wrong with starting to a time when prices started to diverge from the longer term trend? You know the start of the property bubble instead of the middle?

However returning to the fear that started the discussion of house prices, that people selling are going to get less than the purchase price. Flat prices do not justify that fear.

 

[medhead]

You say [-]black[/-] the numbers tell the story - I say its crystal clear.

There fixed that for you. Sorry but cold hard numbers trump your gut feeling any day.

 

[drsmithy]

Those are the facts I had already given before your untrue comment.

No, you changed from saying Gillard enacted a carbon tax to Gillard and Rudd have called it a carbon tax.

Skyring has already quoted the source yesterday.In fact he just beat me to it though he quoted Politifact and I went to the relevant charter.

No, the quotes do not support the assertion that boat arrivals (or anyone else) without proper documentation are "illegal".

Well I find Skyring to be quite reasonable.At least he doesn't impugn someone's character just because they don't agree with his views.

I'm not "impugning your character" because I disagree with your views, I'm saying you lack honesty and integrity because you keep changing your argument halfway through when evidence against it is shown.

 

[drsmithy]

So now we have 3 regions. But it is very interesting that you've taken 2006 as a base. What's wrong with starting to a time when prices started to diverge from the longer term trend? You know the start of the property bubble instead of the middle?

In fact, you really need to go back to the '80s (if not earlier) to get a realistic view. For huge swathes of the country, that's the last time housing was really affordable (median multiplier around 3x).

Real estate has increased in cost in Australia, in real terms, around two to four times over the last few decades (depending on exactly where you live). Arguing prices haven't increased since 2006 is as disingenuous as the people who like to try and argue global temperatures haven't increased since 1998 (or whatever year it was with the unusually high number that they cherry pick).

 

[Skyring]

Real estate has increased in cost in Australia, in real terms, around two to four times over the last few decades (depending on exactly where you live). Arguing prices haven't increased since 2006 is as disingenuous as the people who like to try and argue global temperatures haven't increased since 1998 (or whatever year it was with the unusually high number that they cherry pick).

This is like saying that you made excellent time until you got to the traffic jam. On average, you are going at 90 km/h.

Just not at the moment.

Right.

Looking at global temperatures, there's no need to cherry pick to see that the past decade has been flat. CO2 shows a steady rise. Temperatures don't.

Likewise with real estate. House prices are flat.

 

[Pukka]

Heh. You're kidding, right ? His preferred PM results are what ? 30% ? He might end up PM, but trying to argue "that's what the majority of Australians want" is just flat-out delusional.

I think everyone is aware that if you vote ALP you get Rudd as PM and likewise if you vote coalition you get TA, you can't have it any other way.

Ipso facto if TA ends up as PM it's what the majority of Australians want because they will have put him there.

Hardly delusional

 

[Pukka]

This is like saying that you made excellent time until you got to the traffic jam. On average, you are going at 90 km/h.

Just not at the moment.

Right.

Looking at global temperatures, there's no need to cherry pick to see that the past decade has been flat. CO2 shows a steady rise. Temperatures don't.

Likewise with real estate. House prices are flat.

That's why they moved the goal posts and called it climate change instead of global warming

 

[drsmithy]

I think everyone is aware that if you vote ALP you get Rudd as PM and likewise if you vote coalition you get TA, you can't have it any other way.

Ipso facto if TA ends up as PM it's what the majority of Australians want because they will have put him there.

Hardly delusional

That a majority of people might vote for the Liberal party in no way implicitly means that a majority of people want Abbot as PM. You are conflating two different things.
Compare, for example, polls comparing Abbot as leader to Turnbull.