Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[medhead]

I don't know how many times I have to say this,Howard was not the biggest taxing PM in History.The revenue as a % of GDP gives a false impression if Government spending goes up more than revenue.
Commonwealth revenue in 2011/12 was higher than 2007/08 by more than inflation.Go check the budget papers.Problem was in the laqst 6 years spending went up by twice the amount of revenue-hence the structural deficit.

As I've said many times absolute revenue is not comparable over time. Comparisons have to be made relative to a base. GDP is a measure of the economic capacity of the nation. Tax as a percentage of GDP is a comparable measure of the tax burden on the nation. A measure of tax burden like this says nothing about spending.

I can not believe you've pulled out this again.

 

[cove]

If my long lost buddy Wayne Swan had balanced out the budget deficits to zero each year then the tax percentage would be completely different.
All that happened is he shoved 300 billion of debt onto our kids at a time when they have to buy a home at about half a million in many places in Australia.

 

[777]

If my long lost buddy Wayne Swan had balanced out the budget deficits to zero each year then the tax percentage would be completely different.
All that happened is he shoved 300 billion of debt onto our kids at a time when they have to buy a home at about half a million in many places in Australia.

Why do you think the new government is going to continue the practice of running deficits then?

 

[drsmithy]

If my long lost buddy Wayne Swan had balanced out the budget deficits to zero each year then the tax percentage would be completely different.

No, it wouldn't.

All that happened is he shoved 300 billion of debt onto our kids at a time when they have to buy a home at about half a million in many places in Australia.

If Howard & Costello hadn't spent so much effort inflating and sustaining our real estate bubble, those houses would probably only cost half as much.

 

[cove]

The final period of vote buying by Howard and Costello should never get repeated that's for sure.
Labor did worse in their 6 years because Wayne Swan struggled with numbers that really mattered.

 

[drsmithy]

The final period of vote buying by Howard and Costello should never get repeated that's for sure.

Too late, it just happened.

 

[cove]

I have yet to meet a taxpayer who thinks he/she should pay any more in taxes to help fix the deficit/debt.
Raising the GST rate to make the States more viable and less dependent on Federal support is something that needs airing.
All the work done by the Ken Henry tax review seems to be consigned to the rubbish bin.
With GST it catches a lot of the black economy money that is missed by the Federal tax system.

 

[drsmithy]

I have yet to meet a taxpayer who thinks he/she should pay any more in taxes to help fix the deficit/debt.

Indeed.

Most of them are happy to take the handouts, services, stable society and economy that debt pays for however.

You would struggle to find any other country in the world, that has the breadth and depth of publicly-funded services and infrastructure Australia does, with lower taxes (or less public debt).

Next time you're talking to "taxpayers" about things, ask them if they would have been willing to forego their baby bonus, family tax payments, public funding of private schools, negative gearing or 50% CGT discounts in the interests of reducing or avoiding public debt.

Raising the GST rate to make the States more viable and less dependent on Federal support is something that needs airing.
All the work done by the Ken Henry tax review seems to be consigned to the rubbish bin.
With GST it catches a lot of the black economy money that is missed by the Federal tax system.

The GST is a regressive tax, so if it is increased (or broadened), then compensating payments need to go out to those on the lower end of the income scale to make up the difference. I don't have any problem with raising (or broadening) it in principle (especially since it captures more revenue from existing and soon-to-be retirees sitting on huge asset stashes), so long as the negative impact on low income earners is offset.

However, you will get no more attention paid to the overall vision of the Henry review with the Coalition than you did with Labor. They will focus on and cherry pick the bits that benefit the wealthy (eg: reducing or eliminating taxes), and ignore the rest (eg: instituting a broad-based land tax, introducing a proper RSPT).

 

[drross]

No, it wouldn't.


If Howard & Costello hadn't spent so much effort inflating and sustaining our real estate bubble, those houses would probably only cost half as much.

dream on. you don't seriously beleive what you've just written, do you??

 

[awilcockson]

Re: Abbott in Government

No sane person is going to faff around marking 100+ boxes... When the lines were stretching and people waiting 15 minutes in the morning to vote, the people waiting behind you to get it over and done with would give you the hurry up before you made it half way...

My wife and I individually numbered the 82 boxes in the QLD senate election. I even spent 4 hours the night before investigating the policies of the ridiculous number of minor parties. Disgusted to find 11 parties with policies so terrible I had to put them below the LNP!

 

[bass_ke]

Re: Abbott in Government

Ditto, first time we've individually preferences out senate vote!

Prevoting at the airport with no line meant no pressure!

 

[drsmithy]

dream on. you don't seriously beleive what you've just written, do you??

What ? That if Howard & Costello had implemented policies aimed at making real estate cheaper, and not rigged the tax system in favour of real estate speculation, and, we wouldn't have had anything close to the real estate bubble we do ?

Yes, I believe that quite strongly.


The cognitive dissonance towards property in this country never fails to amaze me.
Dramatic increases in cost of food - Oh noes !
Dramatic increases in cost of electricity - Catastrophe !
Dramatic increases in cost of petrol - Armageddon !

Dramatic increase in cost of housing - This is the most awesomest thing that's ever happened to our country !

 

[QF WP]

So frustrating that the counting of votes (apart from in the marginal seats - whoops, that word again ) seems to have stalled.

I was hoping to see the back of my local member "Swannie". Alas, it looks like he's back, yet this page seems to indicate 11,582 postal ballots are yet to be counted?? I want my household postal votes to count...

I'm . In all honesty, until counting has finished (and re-counting for those contentious and close seats), nobody should declare themselves a winner/loser.

 

[drross]

What ? That if Howard & Costello had implemented policies aimed at making real estate cheaper, and not rigged the tax system in favour of real estate speculation, and, we wouldn't have had anything close to the real estate bubble we do ?

Yes, I believe that quite strongly.


The cognitive dissonance towards property in this country never fails to amaze me.
Dramatic increases in cost of food - Oh noes !
Dramatic increases in cost of electricity - Catastrophe !
Dramatic increases in cost of petrol - Armageddon !

Dramatic increase in cost of housing - This is the most awesomest thing that's ever happened to our country !

i presume you are talking about negatively gearing investments including property?

 

[medhead]

So frustrating that the counting of votes (apart from in the marginal seats - whoops, that word again ) seems to have stalled.

I was hoping to see the back of my local member "Swannie". Alas, it looks like he's back, yet this page seems to indicate 11,582 postal ballots are yet to be counted?? I want my household postal votes to count...

I'm . In all honesty, until counting has finished (and re-counting for those contentious and close seats), nobody should declare themselves a winner/loser.

That was interesting. I heard 2 things from AEC spokesman. In one electorate there was 9000 postal ballots but the typical return rate is 80%. The other one was that they don't even do the preference distribution until next week. Looks like a while to go yet.

Some seats can safely declare a win. Maranoa and Gorton for example, where one party has got over well 50% of the primary vote.

 

[HarryB]

Oh dear ... 1000 votes were "misplaced" by the AEC in Wangaratta and none of them are for the adorable Sophie Mirabella.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...-mcgowans-lead-over-mirabella-in-indi/4951666

I smell a legal challenge.

 

[drron]

As I've said many times absolute revenue is not comparable over time. Comparisons have to be made relative to a base. GDP is a measure of the economic capacity of the nation. Tax as a percentage of GDP is a comparable measure of the tax burden on the nation. A measure of tax burden like this says nothing about spending.

I can not believe you've pulled out this again.

So you are saying that Australia avoiding recession had nothing to do with Swan/Rudd.
A recession being defined as 2 quarters of negative GDP growth.
The only way they could say they were responsible for avoiding the recession was if their spending increased GDP.And if it did revenue as a percentage of GDP falls meaning that this measure can be misleading.

 

[medhead]

So you are saying that Australia avoiding recession had nothing to do with Swan/Rudd.
A recession being defined as 2 quarters of negative GDP growth.
The only way they could say they were responsible for avoiding the recession was if their spending increased GDP.And if it did revenue as a percentage of GDP falls meaning that this measure can be misleading.

No I'm saying you need to use a comparable measure not total revenue.

The rest of your post includes a whole heap of assumptions. Firstly the assumption that all of the GDP growth was due to the spending. How about you dig out the facts about the various contributions to the GDP growth, instead of making up little thought bubbles. While your at it how about digging out the changes in tax take as well. Sure if gdp grows and tax take stays the same that percentage will be lower. However, that is a hypothetical on your part. You assume tax take stayed the same. Did it?

Tax as a percentage of GDP is lower under the current government than it was under Howard. That is a comparable measure of the overall tax burden on the entire country.

Let's say I'm earning $100 and I pay $25 in tax. 25%. Then things change, growth happens and I earn $300 and now pay $60 in tax. 20%. You're claiming I'm worse off because I'm paying over twice as much tax. Whereas in reality I have a lower tax burden.

 

[Pukka]

Let's say I'm earning $100 and I pay $25 in tax. 25%. Then things change, growth happens and I earn $300 and now pay $60 in tax. 20%. You're claiming I'm worse off because I'm paying over twice as much tax. Whereas in reality I have a lower tax burden.

It would be really nice if that's the way it worked with personal taxation but no growth happens tax burden goes up not down

 

[Pukka]

What ? That if Howard & Costello had implemented policies aimed at making real estate cheaper, and not rigged the tax system in favour of real estate speculation, and, we wouldn't have had anything close to the real estate bubble we do ?

Yes, I believe that quite strongly.


The cognitive dissonance towards property in this country never fails to amaze me.
Dramatic increases in cost of food - Oh noes !
Dramatic increases in cost of electricity - Catastrophe !
Dramatic increases in cost of petrol - Armageddon !

Dramatic increase in cost of housing - This is the most awesomest thing that's ever happened to our country !

Well hopefully it never happens but as you've already admitted to having a mortgage & this really is your pet gripe are you seriously telling us if the housing market plummeted by 50% in an American/UK style you would be happy? Presumably you don't think that's going to happen though or you would be renting. So you're just saying its an unjustified boom but in reality you've supported it by buying a house at an inflated price.