Passenger attempts to enter coughpit on MH128

[moa999]

And the Swat guys have to gear up and get to the airport. I suspect they are CBD based. Even at midnight that's 30min on Melbourne

And I also Suspect at that time once the last pax have boarded the aircraft that airport security/ police numbers from pretty rapidly

 

[RooFlyer]

OK to the last few posts, but why the 'SWAT' (I know that's not what they are called), in full kit, assault rifles drawn etc? Were they expecting a fire fight? Again, the situation was no doubt fully described to them beforehand. A passenger could have been live streaming it to the world! What did they think was going to happen after 60 mins that didn't happen after 30?

And why did the pax all still have their heads up? Surely if you are going to 'storm' the plane with rifles out, you get everyone down. I remember why pax were kept on board QF32 .. it was safer inside the aircraft than out of it. That doesn't seem to be the case here, if there was an actual bomb on board.

Sorry, as I said, I'm usually all in favour of security/police actions but this seems way over the top, and dangerous to boot.

 

[FlyboyAl]

Why not open the cabin door and push the perp out? ONLY JOKING! But the 60 or more minute delay does sound "odd" considering he was restrained, and the authorities would have known that.

 

[RooFlyer]

Why not open the cabin door and push the perp out? ONLY JOKING! But the 60 or more minute delay does sound "odd" considering he was restrained, and the authorities would have known that.

Why not a couple or 3 airport federal police, side arms drawn if necessary boarding the plane, securing it and taking the guy off?

 

[moa999]

Sorry, as I said, I'm usually all in favour of security/police actions but this seems way over the top, and dangerous to boot.

Couldn't confirm whether or not there might be another hidden bad guy.
Was there a bomb or not

Need to plan, contingency plan etc.

I agree though combined with the multiple diversions (of mostly freight flights) in hindsight it does seem like overkill

 

[Quickstatus]

What of the cabin crew who are there ostensibly to maintain cabin safety/security?
Reports are that they told the man to sit down several times then yelled for help. Apparently (and again) it was passengers who detained the man. It appears that the cabin crew modus operandi is to call for help "I need help , I need help" hoping that passengers will come to their aid?.

I understand that when unarmed there often is little the cabin crew can do and why not utilise the assistance of passengers who have demonstrated since 9/11 their willingness to help. But are cabin crew now trained to not physically interfere and recruit the passengers into doing the difficult bits like physically detaining and subduing a troublesome/dangerous passenger.

 

[RooFlyer]

General question. If there is a bomb threat in a city office, or a crazy threatening people, do the authorities keep every one in place until 'SWAT' storms there place, when they are good and ready, with rifles drawn, or do they evacuate people ASAP?

 

[moa999]

Sounds like some questions being asked:

http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/mh12...olice-to-storm-the-plane-20170601-gwhupt.html

 

[Denali]

..... But are cabin crew now trained to not physically interfere and recruit the passengers into doing the difficult bits like physically detaining and subduing a troublesome/dangerous passenger.

Maybe the FA was calling for other FAs? How else will they draw attention to needing assistance, by pressing the pax buzzer?

Personally, I think in todays environment, people are prepared to step in and assist/physically play a part in taking down someone. I know I am. I dont have a problem with a pax stepping in and assisting and then stepping back/sitting down once instructed to/the person is secured.

 

[oz_mark]

General question. If there is a bomb threat in a city office, or a crazy threatening people, do the authorities keep every one in place until 'SWAT' storms there place, when they are good and ready, with rifles drawn, or do they evacuate people ASAP?

The responses to bomb threats vary, but in many cases a threat assessment is made, and nothing happens. I have also been in buildings that evacuate....
(Bomb threats against buildings are surprisingly common)

 

[Quickstatus]

The irony of Victorian law enforcement (VLE). (Though i understand though that this is an AFP issue)
For so many years VLE have been criticised for their "trigger happy' attitude which included storming the fort shoot and ask questions later.
So many academics, arm chair critics, and media have lambasted the VLE for this.

Now the have gone the other way and adopted like the lindt cafe siege a wait, consider options and see approach

The fault lies with us all. We tie one hand of LE behind their backs and threaten them with legal consequences. The ADF is not immune as well with a recent attempt to prosecute soldiers in the courtroom for action in the fog of war.

The inquiry in the the Lindt cafe siege mostly reinforced to the officers involved that they will be hauled up for public scrutiny irrespective of the outcome.

What if:
The captain orders an evac down the slides on the basis there could be a bomb.
Then some passengers get seriously injured and there was no bomb
What if there was evac and you have let out onto the airport tarmac another passengers who is an unknown security risk?

 

[Quickstatus]

Maybe the FA was calling for other FAs? How else will they draw attention to needing assistance, by pressing the pax buzzer?

Personally, I think in todays environment, people are prepared to step in and assist/physically play a part in taking down someone. I know I am. I dont have a problem with a pax stepping in and assisting and then stepping back/sitting down once instructed to/the person is secured.

Could be calling other FA - but don't they have a duress button near their consoles?
Yes these days passengers are more proactive in cabin. However are the airlines taking advantage of this and using this proactiveness while at the same time instructing their crew to step back.
After all better to be standing back and maintaining situational awareness?
Or standing back to minimise crew injuries because this carries significantly more liability to the airline than passenger injuries? or to ensure the crew are able bodies until the aircraft lands?

 

[oz_mark]

The inquiry in the the Lindt cafe siege mostly reinforced to the officers involved that they will be hauled up for public scrutiny irrespective of the outcome.

Indeed, policing is very much a damned if you do, and damned if you don't type affair.

Having said that, there does appear to have been some operational issues in this case that have led to a sub-opimal outcome.

 

[Pushka]

The irony of Victorian law enforcement (VLE). (Though i understand though that this is an AFP issue)
For so many years VLE have been criticised for their "trigger happy' attitude which included storming the fort shoot and ask questions later.
So many academics, arm chair critics, and media have lambasted the VLE for this.

Now the have gone the other way and adopted like the lindt cafe siege a wait, consider options and see approach

The fault lies with us all. We tie one hand of LE behind their backs and threaten them with legal consequences. The ADF is not immune as well with a recent attempt to prosecute soldiers in the courtroom for action in the fog of war.

The inquiry in the the Lindt cafe siege mostly reinforced to the officers involved that they will be hauled up for public scrutiny irrespective of the outcome.

What if:
The captain orders an evac down the slides on the basis there could be a bomb.
Then some passengers get seriously injured and there was no bomb
What if there was evac and you have let out onto the airport tarmac another passengers who is an unknown security risk?

My thoughts - if there was a slightest chance there was a bomb then I would be down the slide in a flash. A reasonable person would conclude that all the evidence pointed towards him having a bomb - a 'device' and the verbal threat and attempt to gain entry to the coughpit. I'd be out of there if I could in a heartbeat.

 

[RooFlyer]

Ah, some more details coming out (SMH, Above). Possibly not one but 2 or 3 stuff ups.
Mrs.dr.ron called it!

 

[jb747]

A call for help is directed at the other crew, but, ever since 9/11, the passengers, especially the many who are ex military, or just big, are quite inclined to assist. Such help is generally welcome.

I'd have to say I do not understand the logic of keeping pax on board if you have any concerns about a possible device. Parking remotely is the norm. Presumably the stairs were not connected to stop passengers getting off. Be a pretty silly look if the device had been real.

 

[RooFlyer]

Just heard the Victorian chief police commissioner on ABC radio defending the time ( back to nearly 90 mins apparently). They "had to make sure there wasn't a second bomb on board". So, after 60+ mins did they decide there was a second bomb, and then stormed the cabin, rifles out, or did they decide there wasnt a second bomb and went in rifles out anyway?

How did they decide the bomb status of inside the cabin? Did they ask pax and crew to look for it?

Oh, he also said quote "if this was the USA or Europe, they'd still be there".

Really?

 

[Quickstatus]

A lot of what the Commissioner said did not make sense. But DIYDDIYD

Did captain or AFP decide to keep passengers on board?

 

[trippin_the_rift]

The police knew the plane would be full of pax with mobile phone cameras. They needed to dress up and look good for the media

 

[moa999]

Oh, he also said quote "if this was the USA or Europe, they'd still be there".

Was vaguely believable till that comment.