Pax putting phone on speaker mode throughout flight and ignoring crew requests

[justinbrett]

Yes, but in this case its not QF or AA. And no one is saying it is not poor behaviour.
But the problem is the passenger has demonstrated non compliance with crew instructions - the poor behaviour has already occurred and the crew has decided not to escalate. What then?.
Most suggest an escalatory posture but this is opposite of the cabin crews'.
I would suggest that escalating a comfort problem into a safety problem is not necessarily advisable in an aluminium tube at FL350. The issue can be safely handled on the ground.

The airline wasn't named, my point is they probably do have a policy.

If you don't comply with an instruction, even if it's "comfort" as you say, that's a good indication you won't comply with a safety instruction. That's why most airlines have a very low tolerance for disobeying crew, regardless of how trivial the instruction.

It's actually a pretty poor reflection of the airline, whichever one it was (I wonder why OP didn't want to name them?)

 

[andye]

In this circumstance, I think crew should be empowered by the airline to say that if they continue to ignore reasonable crew requests, they will not be allowed to fly with the airline again.
May hurt the company bottom-line but the threat may be enough (especially if they are outbound)

 

[Daver6]

It seems though that it's rather common that we'll gripe about these things but not actually speak up. Why just rely on the cabin crew. Go say something yourself politely and state the impact their behaviour is having on you. It's not that hard.

A few years ago I was in the exec lounge at the Swissotel Singapore. There was a family of Australians with the father having a video call with someone else. He was walking around showing the view and talking loudly. The phone volume was loud too. I politely told him that it's not appropriate and impacting the other folks in the lounge. He ended the call quickly and problem solved.

Sure, I could have complained to staff and made it their problem, but seemed way simpler to do so myself. I'm hardly a big intimidating guy either.

 

[Quickstatus]

That's why most airlines have a very low tolerance for disobeying crew, regardless of how trivial the instruction.

Agree, but lets take it to its logical conclusion. For arguments sake lets say the passenger completely refuses to comply and completely refuses to hand over the phone. Then what. Possibly the Captain could divert to a closer airport - this has consequences for everyone over and above what was a comfort issue. If this was at the gate or on the ground taxiing for departure, the passenger is easily offloaded back at the gate but at FL350 the options are much more restricted and/or carry further consequences.

My point is not to let it slide but there are better options open to the airline which does not further affect all the passengers.. Certainly in this case passengers taking it into their own hands midair is likely not a good solution.

May hurt the company bottom-line but the threat may be enough (especially if they are outbound)

Wont hurt the bottom line - airline will get brownie points.

He ended the call quickly and problem solved.

It could go the other way too...especially if they are drunk and have a short fuse

 

[RooFlyer]

Throwing food/drink which lands on you? Zen.
Pax standing in the aisle farting over you/your +1? Zen.
Constant kneeing in the back of your seat by the kid behind? Zen

First 2 can be reasonably intepreted as assault and even battery

Yes, but by your scenario, a complaint is made and those in charge (crew) do nothing. What do you do? Just Zen?

BTW: Farting - olfactory offence/assault. Loud phone - auditory offence/assault. No difference really, is there? But one you regard as a problem, the other not.

 

[Quickstatus]

a complaint is made and those in charge (crew) do nothing. What do you do? Just Zen?

You can escalate it into a tit for tat in midair if you like - would you? . What would you then do if the CC then told you to sit down which they are likely to do.

Loud phone - auditory offence/assault

Actually no. The closest it would get to is disorderly conduct. But it could be also intepreted as "annoying" behaviour - that is not criminal.

 

[justinbrett]

Agree, but lets take it to its logical conclusion. For arguments sake lets say the passenger completely refuses to comply and completely refuses to hand over the phone. Then what. Possibly the Captain could divert to a closer airport - this has consequences for everyone over and above what was a comfort issue.

It’s happened for a lot less before.

I think most crew fly with handcuffs or other restraining devices.

 

[ermen]

Yea... the system seems to be reflecting the right allowance and I have not had any issues at check-in so far. I get the 30kg plus the OWE/S allowance tacked on top of it, never had an issue with weight of baggage at check-in flying MH.

The airline wasn't named, my point is they probably do have a policy.

It's actually a pretty poor reflection of the airline, whichever one it was (I wonder why OP didn't want to name them?)

Airline is MH and route was ICN-KUL.
Pax was in 1A, I was in 2H/K?
Yeah I mean I don't really expect much more from MH given their culture was being fairly polite and non-confrontational. Beside, I took a quick google and could not find if they had an explicit speaker off policy (i am sure that they must have it somewhere?).

It seems though that it's rather common that we'll gripe about these things but not actually speak up. Why just rely on the cabin crew. Go say something yourself politely and state the impact their behaviour is having on you. It's not that hard.

Sure, I could have complained to staff and made it their problem, but seemed way simpler to do so myself. I'm hardly a big intimidating guy either.

I guess I could. But what if that person pretended not to understand English? Which was what she was doing with the crew (or using that as an excuse to disobey instructions).

 

[RooFlyer]

You can escalate it into a tit for tat in midair if you like - would you? . What would you then do if the CC then told you to sit down which they are likely to do.

No I wouldn't. If it was really egregious, I would go over and politely ask them to turn it down or use earplugs/headset. I've done that a couple of times (in international J) and worked completely once, still audible another time. If it was just annoying, I'd ask a FA to see if they could get the pax to be more considerate. Again, couple of times that's worked, others they either didn't, or were ignored. I would then go to CSM and complain. At that point, there is nothing else I can do, except put earplug in, which I would resent having to do.

BUT I would not simply ignore the boorishness by (trying to) ignore it. Letting anti social behaviour continue "because it doesn't bother me" in almost any circumstance is a slippery slope and will probably end in greater tears at the end.

Actually no. The closest it would get to is disorderly conduct. But it could be also intepreted as "annoying" behaviour - that is not criminal.

Umm ...you omitted the other part of that comparison, which was the point. Auditory or olfactory 'intrusion'. You consider the second maybe assault or even battery, but the first tolerable and ignorable

 

[ermen]

Oh what happens on the ground is even better - after we land and get to the gate, the said pax whips our her phone and begins to call someone on speakerphone and has this very nice conversation.

I captured some moments of it - hoping it was some commercial in confidence data - which I will definitely send to her employer or competitor. Does anyone know what she is saying?

 

[Pushka]

It seems though that it's rather common that we'll gripe about these things but not actually speak up. Why just rely on the cabin crew. Go say something yourself politely and state the impact their behaviour is having on you. It's not that hard.

A few years ago I was in the exec lounge at the Swissotel Singapore. There was a family of Australians with the father having a video call with someone else. He was walking around showing the view and talking loudly. The phone volume was loud too. I politely told him that it's not appropriate and impacting the other folks in the lounge. He ended the call quickly and problem solved.

Sure, I could have complained to staff and made it their problem, but seemed way simpler to do so myself. I'm hardly a big intimidating guy either.

I've done similarly in the lounge dining room in KL. One woman was holding a financial business call on her PC. She had ear phones but all surrounding tables were listening in to her call. I leant over and told her we could all hear what she was saying clearly. She got up, closed her pc and hurried out the lounge. Same trip I was on a hop on hop off bus and the guy behind was talking so loudly on his phone we couldn't hear the Audio. Again I asked him to be quiet so we could hear what we had paid for.

I'd hope the cabin crew would intervene more appropriately for the benefit of all. Maybe even an announcement as a reminder. Not singling them out but as a general advice.

 

[Happy Dude]

Hosties dropped the ball on this one.

 

[Daver6]

It could go the other way too...especially if they are drunk and have a short fuse

You're right. However, the guy didn't appear intoxicated to me. I was polite about it. It's truly going to be quite low probability that someone is going to flip out and beat me up.

If I had mentioned it to a staff member, the right to them would be the same. Part of my motivation is I'm Australian and this bloke was being an embarrassment to the rest of us. So pulling him into line benefited me too from that aspect.

I guess I could. But what if that person pretended not to understand English? Which was what she was doing with the crew (or using that as an excuse to disobey instructions).

That could have happened and communicating the impact on you would have been rather difficult. People can generally convey a message though even when there is a language barrier.

My general comment wasn't intended as a dig on you @ermen. I get these situations are difficult and every one of them is different.

 

[Quickstatus]

Umm ...you omitted the other part of that comparison, which was the point. Auditory or olfactory 'intrusion'. You consider the second maybe assault or even battery, but the first tolerable and ignorable

Actually no and Ill clarify: The first one thowing food at you is reasonably intentional and therefore battery. Could be disorderly conduct, You have to prove intent though. Throwing food which accidentally lands on you - maybe disorderly conduct at a push. Likely accidental and nothing will happen legally except you can sue for costs of laundry.
The second is more difficult - it could be defended as accidental - again you have to prove intent for it to be battery
The third an annoying kid banning on seats. Annoying but legally nothing will eventuate.

 

[Quickstatus]

I think most crew fly with handcuffs or other restraining devices.

It’s happened for a lot less before.

I think most crew fly with handcuffs or other restraining devices.

Again, the question is whether a crew would go to that extent. In this case they clearly didn't want to escalate.
I would suggest that restraining devices are an extreme last resort and only after repeated attempts at de-escalation and only with captains permission. The flight landed safely I assume. Was there further escalation in belligerence by the passenger such refusing to put on the seatbelt?. I suggest that the cabin crew achieved a safe arrival of the flight without escalation of the unsavoury situation.

 

[justinbrett]

Again, the question is whether a crew would go to that extent. In this case they clearly didn't want to escalate.
I would suggest that restraining devices are an extreme last resort and only after repeated attempts at de-escalation and only with captains permission. The flight landed safely I assume. Was there further escalation in belligerence by the passenger such refusing to put on the seatbelt?. I suggest that the cabin crew achieved a safe arrival of the flight without escalation of the unsavoury situation.

Would never happen on a western airline.

Give people an inch they take a mile. Just because you perceive this to be trivial doesn’t mean ignoring it is the best method. The minute the pax are getting their way instead of the crew you’ve got a very unsafe situation.

 

[Quickstatus]

Would never happen on a western airline.

Maybe but I would think that "Western" cabin crew are a little more nuanced that what you suggest.

 

[Quickstatus]

Just because you perceive this to be trivial doesn’t mean ignoring it is the best method

That is not what I'm suggesting if you read my previous posts.

I personally as a passenger would Zen out.
However the airline can and should take steps after arrival such as banning the passenger in question. They could also radio ahead for the Fed police to come on board so they can have a chat with the passenger. I am only saying that at 35,000 feet is not necessarily the best place to prosecute a matter such as this especially when it seems like the only thing that happened was the passenger caused a nuisance/annoyance/disturbance resulting in passenger discomfort. I agree that the passenger did not comply with crew instruction - hence the above comment.

 

[DC3]

… She had ear phones but all surrounding tables were listening in to her call. I leant over and told her we could all hear what she was saying clearly. She got up, closed her pc and hurried out the lounge …

 

[pauly7]

I've noticed this happening more and more, not just on flights.

People watching videos or listening to music on their phone with the sound through the speaker, even in a quiet carriage. Not just the usual suspects but even what would appear to be professional or otherwise considerate people.

Same, it’s everywhere.

I now basically carry my NC headphones everywhere to block them out.