PED's on/off during various flight stages - Why?

[samh004]

Out of interest samh004, at what (estimated or actual) flight level on descent did you start getting a signal ? I've often wondered this myself.

It’s usually quite close to the ground… but I’m with flOptus so you can never really tell

 

[The Rok]

I sense a Mythbusters episode coming on? Much like the one about using a cell phone in a gas station!!!

 

[Storyteller]

Going over Iceland we must have been around 10k up. Several hours out of FRA.

 

[mannej]

I sense a Mythbusters episode coming on? Much like the one about using a cell phone in a gas station!!!

There has already been a Mythbusters episode about Cell phones and planes.

Not knowing the dynamics of the actual accident- however there is a Crossair Accident that there are some that believe the interference of mobiles may have had impact on the actual accident itself.

Crossair Flight 498 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[straitman]

There has at no time been any actual evidence of electronics interfering with aircraft systems. If it was a plausible risk then the devices would be banned outright.

The blogs seems very selective in the information provided and makes a lot of unsubstantiated claims. Despite what it says there have been documented cases of interference though I'm going to go and chase them up. (my claim is as valid as many in the blog)

Interesting that the cases to which I refer all predate the 2006 time line mentioned. Probably because all newer aircraft are designed and built with consideration of EM interference and acknowledging that would make the article less authoritive.

 

[samh004]

I sense a Mythbusters episode coming on? Much like the one about using a cell phone in a gas station!!!

I don't use my iPhone other than to checkin to Foursquare at gas stations

Generally inside the car though.




 

[Austman]

GSM phones can have a range of greater than 30km (handset to base station). But base stations have antenna designs that try to keep the transmission lobes directed towards where the handsets will be (which means not directed 30km straight above them). There are concerns too that a plane load of active handsets flying over a city could cause havoc to the mobile system (the fast moving handsets are 'seen' by many base stations). So in the USA the FCC bans their use in planes. But that's not the case in Australia: AMTA - Mobile Phones and Aircraft

 

[LiamR]

Flying in GA I've never lost signal leaving my phone on, nor have I crashed.

I remember once I left my phone on by accident on an SYD-OOL flight and received messages at cruise hight somewhere between Coffs Harbour and Ballina.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

I just stumbled upon a thread on FT which is very similar.

US Dividend Miles forum

Pax detained upon arrival MCO-CLT for cell phone use.

Anyways, someone posted this (post #42)


[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Captain Denny Flanagan of UA, who probably knows 1000 times as much as you or I about the matter, begs to differ:

"Q: Can electronics honestly interfere with the aircraft's navigation system?
A: Yes they can, and it is especially critical when doing an instrument landing. With low visibilities, we are looking for signs of the runway like the approach lights. It is paramount that we be on course and it has been proven that carry-on electronics have an effect on our instruments. On departures, they are asked to be off for the climb out from the airport because there is so much traffic and again it is paramount to be on course."

http://travel.usatoday.com/experts/h...nce/51865330/1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


However, several airlines have been using iPads in the coughpit.
AA
United
Delta

So, where do we stand on this issue now??

 

[serfty]

...

So, where do we stand on this issue now??

Simple, there is really no Dilemma - follow the rules as dictated by various carriers and get on with life.

Several years ago, Qantas began to permit the use of cameras (with internal batteries) throughout the flight.

Some time in the last year they began to permit the use of wifi devices in cruise.
Who knows what 2015 will bring.

 

[medhead]

A couple of us on a flight from FRA ORD last year (yes, 2011), received messages in flight. I always turn off my mobile, yet received a "Welcome to Iceland" message. His was "welcome to ... some island that I can't recall - not Falklands / Shetlands, but my brain keeps remembering it as something like this.

It seems my phone turned itself on, maybe in my bag something pressed onto the on switch, or spontaneously turned on. I didn't have it in flight mode as didn't plan on turning it on for any other function mis flight.

I know where FRA is and I think ORD is in North America. So it would be an unusual flight path if it was the Falkland islands.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[nlagalle]

Flying in GA I've never lost signal leaving my phone on, nor have I crashed.

I remember once I left my phone on by accident on an SYD-OOL flight and received messages at cruise hight somewhere between Coffs Harbour and Ballina.

I accidentally left my mobile on one time when i was flying, the sound in the headset of the phone tracking in on the base station and when a call came in was unbearable. Luckily I could reach into my flight bag behind and switch it off.

 

[JohnK]

So, where do we stand on this issue now??

People are too used to their gadgets to let go of them easily, even for a short amount of time.

Wouldn't it be just as easy to say no electronic devices inflight?

 

[Storyteller]

I know where FRA is and I think ORD is in North America. So it would be an unusual flight path if it was the Falkland islands.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

Now that would be a diversion! It was fun enough to be heading north west out of FRA. The name of this little Island will come to me. It's mindboggling that a little old phone like mine would pick up a signal at cruising speed & height, from a speck in the ocean.

 

[tuapekastar]

Now that would be a diversion! It was fun enough to be heading north west out of FRA. The name of this little Island will come to me. It's mindboggling that a little old phone like mine would pick up a signal at cruising speed & height, from a speck in the ocean.

Not the Faeroe Islands?

 

[Storyteller]

Not the Faeroe Islands?

YES!! Thank you!

 

[Mh4k]

The blogs seems very selective in the information provided and makes a lot of unsubstantiated claims. Despite what it says there have been documented cases of interference though I'm going to go and chase them up. (my claim is as valid as many in the blog)

Interesting that the cases to which I refer all predate the 2006 time line mentioned. Probably because all newer aircraft are designed and built with consideration of EM interference and acknowledging that would make the article less authoritive.

The "blog" I linked was the NY Times, who provided quantifiable data about the actual amount of radiation output by these devices versus a selection of devices which the FAA has cleared for use on takeoff and landing.

There is no great mystery here. Aircraft systems are shielded against EMI. They're also exposed to far more powerful sources of EMI - such as radar - which are external to the aircraft during takeoff and landing than any consumer electronic device. This poses no danger, as the electronics are shielded.

There is no other category of device or substance which could "potentially" pose a threat to aircraft which we allow onboard on the basis of an honour system that passengers will not use them in a manner or at a time that may pose a danger. Not so long ago passengers were prevented from boarding with more than one cigarette lighter (itself a ridiculous stipulation). If these devices were a credible threat to aircraft safety they would not be permitted onboard.

 

[Austman]

And technically, it's been possible to use mobile phones (with a picocell) and Wi-Fi on planes for a long time. It's even been offered by several airlines - and sometimes later removed.

There are many other reasons for not allowing some electronic devices/services to be used on planes. Reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with aircraft navigation safety.

(and allowing mobiles on a plane is a bad, bad, bad move IMO)

 

[Mh4k]

To expand further on my previous point, one or all of the following may be true with respect to passenger electronic devices:

- The passenger may not be a native language speaker and therefore may not comprehend the direction to switch off the device
- The passenger may not have sufficient knowledge of their device to be able to properly switch it off (how many of you fully shut down your laptops versus simply sleeping them?)
- The passenger may choose, through apathy or malice, to ignore the direction to switch off the device
- The device may have a scheduled wake function resulting it turning back on without the passenger's knowledge
- The device may have a power button positioned such that it is accidentally turned back on after being switched off

Yet despite all of the above factors, which make the direction to turn the devices off largely pointless, not only are passenger electronic devices still allowed on board there is little effort made to ensure that passengers have actually complied with the directive other than, perhaps, a cursory sweep of the cabin to ensure that no passengers are actively using devices during the verboten times. Out of sight, out of mind. And we are supposed to believe that these devices are actually, somehow, a threat to aircraft systems that are shielded to withstand far more powerful sources of radiation than any such devices is capable of producing. Planes are pretty cool, but they don't get their own physics. An instrument shielded against the aircraft's own radar is amply shielded against your iPad too.

If my mobile phone is a threat to your aircraft then I should be required to pack it in my checked luggage, demonstrate to check-in staff that it has been properly disabled and cannot be accidentally powered up in flight, and any such device in my hand luggage should be confiscated by airport security. Many ports take largely this approach for aerosols, for goodness sake.

The entire notion is laughable. No device which poses a credible threat to an aircraft is permitted on board under an honour system that it will not be used.

There are many other reasons for not allowing some electronic devices/services to be used on planes. Reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with aircraft navigation safety.

(and allowing mobiles on a plane is a bad, bad, bad move IMO)

FWIW many, many long-haul aircraft have in-seat telephones and it hasn't led to the kinds of scenarios I think many people fear mobile phone usage would (i.e., obnoxiously loud phone conversations from your seat mates). Passengers are already afforded plenty of ways to annoy others so unless you propose gagging passengers in the interests of peace and quiet (an idea I may not entirely oppose) then I don't think it'd actually be much of an issue.

Finally, the FAA are on record in the afore-linked NYT article that the bar on device usage has nothing to do with ensuring that passengers give their full attention to the crew and announcements during take-off and landing - another urban myth laid to rest.

 

[medhead]

I think we need to think about the physics a bit more with some of this discussion.

• aircraft radar is directional and the power is directed away from the aircraft
• shielding against the aircraft radar is very easy to implement because the radar is in a fixed position
• ground based radar may be vastly more powerful than a mobile phone. But that radar is also much, much further away. Inverse square law!

I would also ask anyone who thinks there is no threat from electronic devices on aircraft what they think about the use of electronic devices in hospitals? Do they switch off around heart related medical devices? If the answer is no, then think again. I've seen research that shows mobiles interfere with some medical devices and those are still subject to external fields from base stations and radar and etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.