Pilot sues for alleged traumatic QantasLink/Cobham event

[MEL_Traveller]

Put it to bed.We all know what you think is the problem.
But seriously you think that shutting 2 engines down as a commercial pilot is the same as those attending a traffic accident,cutting people out of the wreckage and then resuscitating them. Ridiculous.
More like a doctor reacting that way because an 80+ year old patient died because it had happened before.In those circumstances usually diagnosed as depression rather than PTSD.
And none of us know what the FO was like before this incident and everything is purely speculation.

The examples of the military and first responders was given in response to the view that anyone suffering from PTSD is unsuitable to have been in the job they were. I did not equate the functions of soldiers and first responders with pilots.

Your example of the doctor doesn’t recognise the role of a third party.

 

[drron]

The examples of the military and first responders was given in response to the view that anyone suffering from PTSD is unsuitable to have been in the job they were. I did not equate the functions of soldiers and first responders with pilots.

Your example of the doctor doesn’t recognise the role of a third party.

There doesn't have to be a third party.For example your first responder at a single vehicle crash.
And I have seen doctor's react to the deaths of patients.Often a symptom of burn out.

Besides there is not a scientific definition of PTSD but a consensus.So one psychiarist might diagnose this FO as having PTSD another might have an alternate diagnosis.
We also run the risk of medicalising a lot of incidents that are normal human reactions.

 

[Melburnian1]

And none of us know what the FO was like before this incident and everything is purely speculation.

It can be hard as many legal cases are 'unreported' - not ordinarily available for public viewing on legal databases - but I'd like, eventually, to see the full report of the case (which depends on it going to trial).

If latter occurred, the justice/judge would consider a range of detailed medical and other reports, and he/she would explain the reasoning behind the decision, and typically include excerpts from report A, B and so on.

 

[drron]

It can be hard as many legal cases are 'unreported' - not ordinarily available for public viewing on legal databases - but I'd like, eventually, to see the full report of the case (which depends on it going to trial).

If latter occurred, the justice/judge would consider a range of detailed medical and other reports, and he/she would explain the reasoning behind the decision, and typically include excerpts from report A, B and so on.

And of course the defence would want their own psychiatric opinion as well.

 

[Quickstatus]

There is good evidence that for any injury, poorer outcomes occur when:

Injury is compensable
Lawyers become involved
Compensation is sued via Tort rather than no fault arrangements

 

[Quickstatus]

This was the second engine failure on the same type of aircraft for the FO. I'm sure she'd rather be working than not?

Commenting generally:

If a doctor faints at the sight of blood and subsequently gets PTSD?
We had one a few years back. Tried to sue the hospital/local health district. Didn’t get anywhere. The Dr said the hospital should provide a safe work environment and should have been mindful of the the Dr’s prior history of reaction to blood. Sorry for that Dr - was otherwise good, but most of us thought that it would be better to find another career. Basically we should have some insight about the careers we choose to have.

Don’t be a doctor if you can’t handle blood
Don’t be a worker exposed to heights if you can’t handle heights
Don’t be an abbatoir worker if you love animals
Etc etc etc

The legal case here is quite separate and will be argued by the lawyers/courts.

By the way what was the outcome of the QF72 Captain (A330 uncommanded dive).

 

[Quickstatus]

This shouldn't be treated differently to any other injury sustained on board.

What is process for pilots returning to work after an incident that causes psychological or physical injury?

...
Anyone can get PTSD. However not everyone gets it. The risks of PTSD are not well understood but could be a complex interplay between:

Traumatic events, severity of trauma (physical or psychological), personal or family history of anxiety or depression, prior history of trauma, personality traits - temperament, quality of support systems - personal / professional.

PTSD can manifest as:
(A)Intrusive memories - flashbacks, dreams, nightmares, emotional distress due to something that reminds you of the event - eg anniversary, sound

(B)Negative thoughts, mood- feeling numb, detached from family, negative thoughts about the world around you, difficulty experiencing positivity

(C) Changes in behaviour- easily startled, trouble sleeping/ concentrating, irritability, hyper vigilance

(D) avoidance of triggers - places, people, activities that remind you of event. Avoidance of discussion about event

 

[Happy Dude]

What is process for pilots returning to work after an incident that causes psychological or physical injury?

According to Top Gun, they turn in their wings if they lose their nerve. It seems that now they claim psychological injury and sue someone. Perhaps the new Top Gun 2 movie should include a sub-plot of the legal proceedings of this situation.

 

[milehighclub]

By the way what was the outcome of the QF72 Captain (A330 uncommanded dive).

".....reached settlement in their personal injury claim against European plane maker Airbus and aerospace company Northrop Grumman during mediation last month, just days before the case was due to go to hearing in the Cook County Court in Chicago.""

"However, Hyland said Sullivan, who was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, was likely to continue to suffer from the incident."

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[milehighclub]

By the way what was the outcome of the QF72 Captain (A330 uncommanded dive).

This article is about the same flight, but what happened with a crew member.

‘11 years of hell’: the badly injured Qantas steward who was forgotten

The flight attendant has been left broke and with permanent injuries after he was twice catapulted into the cabin ceiling of a Qantas jet during a mid-air emergency.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Quickstatus]

eached settlement in their personal injury claim

Ok thanks.
As usual the winners in a Tort claim are the lawyers.
Take the lawyers out and outcomes improve - especially for the PTSD sufferer

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There doesn't have to be a third party.For example your first responder at a single vehicle crash.

That appears to be the difference in this case. The argument is that the (in)actions of a third party caused the engine shut-down, and the PTSD was triggered.

 

[Quickstatus]

happened with a crew member.

I read he was unfortunately heading toward his ninth surgery. All too often these people are stuck on the medical merry-go-round and for some reason can’t get off.
This is very common for compensable injuries. Ongoing surgeries/treatments which don’t really solve/improve anything. I hesitate to point the finger at any one side. It’s more complicated than that and I don’t have an answer myself.

 

[Quickstatus]

The argument is that the (in)actions of a third party caused the engine shut-down, and the PTSD was triggered.

That’s the thing with lawyers. Legally they have to point the finger at the specific causes - “but for the inaction of xx_, my client would not have got PTSD”

However PTSD is not so black and white and simplistic. It’s not even a % that can be converted to $$$.

The loser is the PTSD sufferer. They generally go on suffering PTSD with or without a financial settlement.

And I’m not pointing the finger at only one side. Employers are also hiding behind their lawyers as well. They can discharge all their statutory obligations but the PTSD continues.

One thing I do know. Take Tort out of the equation (and by definition the lawyers) and we will go some way to solving this issue.

 

[Must...Fly!]

".....reached settlement in their personal injury claim against European plane maker Airbus and aerospace company Northrop Grumman during mediation last month, just days before the case was due to go to hearing in the Cook County Court in Chicago.""

"However, Hyland said Sullivan, who was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, was likely to continue to suffer from the incident."

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

If I am right in my recollection, that incident was caused by an identified flaw in the manufacture of critical components (flight control software) of the aircraft.

Personally not sure I see much in common between an in flight engine shutdown where the aircraft behaved exactly as expected, against the QF72 incident.

 

[Quickstatus]

Personally not sure I see much in common between an in flight engine shutdown where the aircraft behaved exactly as expected, against the QF72 incident.

Not the point.

Point is that both caused an employee to suffer PTSD (again, the legalities will be contested in the courts, whatever the merits of the case).

PTSD is complex - whether someone gets PTSD is a complex interplay between many factors. Just because the aircraft behaved exactly as expected is no necessarily protection against PTSD

Temperament plays an important role
Some people are just not suited to certain jobs. Unfortunately sometimes not discovered until after sometime in the job/career. It would be nice to sort out temperament before embarking on a career but often not so easy to sort out.

In my line of work, it is very evident that some people fall apart in a crisis environment while others thrive. This is often discovered in a simulation - some get a brain freeze and some just gets on with it as though nothing happens.

Tort battles have a relatively poor outcome re compensable injuries especially when lawyers are involved.

 

[jakeseven7]

I'm writing up a list of things I could possible sue my previous employers for and its a pretty long list...

Love how we are slowly turning into the US.....

 

[Must...Fly!]

I know not the point - hence prefaced with it being my personal opinion.

@Quickstatus you're right that often people sometimes don't realise their suitability (or otherwise) for a job until things really get difficult or stressful. Some people aren't built for certain occupations, but that doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the organisation who employs them.

Recruitment processes can only tell you so much.

 

[Quickstatus]

Recruitment processes can only tell you so much.

Yes. Some recruitment processes use some (supposedly validated) psychological tests. I’m uncertain if they are really accurate in detecting those that are suitable and possibly more importantly those who are not.

The % will never be 100%.

Universities are increasingly going away from the ATAR or equivalent in student selection. Interviews are becoming more prevalent. Medicine has gone down the GAMSAT route.

Q: is it better to have Drs with great bedside manner or Drs with great skills?.

Trivia: here is a question used to select your future Drs:

 

[Quickstatus]

psychiarist might diagnose this FO as having PTSD another might have an alternate diagnosis.

Adjustment disorder might be one though it does not persist after 6months.
Then there might be other secondary diagnoses as well