Pilot sues for alleged traumatic QantasLink/Cobham event

[drron]

Not the point.

Point is that both caused an employee to suffer PTSD (again, the legalities will be contested in the courts, whatever the merits of the case).

PTSD is complex - whether someone gets PTSD is a complex interplay between many factors. Just because the aircraft behaved exactly as expected is no necessarily protection against PTSD

Temperament plays an important role
Some people are just not suited to certain jobs. Unfortunately sometimes not discovered until after sometime in the job/career. It would be nice to sort out temperament before embarking on a career but often not so easy to sort out.

In my line of work, it is very evident that some people fall apart in a crisis environment while others thrive. This is often discovered in a simulation - some get a brain freeze and some just gets on with it as though nothing happens.

Tort battles have a relatively poor outcome re compensable injuries especially when lawyers are involved.

You make good points.I diagnosed 2 cases of PTSD in men in their late 70s who both has suffered from it for nearly 40 years.Each according to their wives had suffered continuosly for that time.They both came to light when they were admitted to a hospital in the late 70s.Both had kept good jobs for the whole period and were regarded as successful.
The presentation was severe nightmares with screaming etc.Sitting down and talking to them was the first time they had told anyone apart from their wives what had happened.

The first fellow was in the Royal Navy.He was on a destroyer sunk making a run across the Mediterranean to Malta.He was the only survivor.Put on another destroyer sunk escorting a convoy from Canada.This time 6 survivors.Left the Navy and became a merchant seaman.This time he his ship was sunk on an Arctic convoy.once again the only survivor.Never went to sea again and came to Australia at war's end setting up his own business.No lawyers ever involved.

The second fellow was a prisoner in Changi.He and a mate escaped but recaptured.His mate was executed.The remainder of the story far too gruesome.We became friends a little after our first meeting.But again no lawyers involved and to most people he was a very successful farmer.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You make good points.I diagnosed 2 cases of PTSD in men in their late 70s who both has suffered from it for nearly 40 years.Each according to their wives had suffered continuosly for that time.They both came to light when they were admitted to a hospital in the late 70s.Both had kept good jobs for the whole period and were regarded as successful.
The presentation was severe nightmares with screaming etc.Sitting down and talking to them was the first time they had told anyone apart from their wives what had happened.

The first fellow was in the Royal Navy.He was on a destroyer sunk making a run across the Mediterranean to Malta.He was the only survivor.Put on another destroyer sunk escorting a convoy from Canada.This time 6 survivors.Left the Navy and became a merchant seaman.This time he his ship was sunk on an Arctic convoy.once again the only survivor.Never went to sea again and came to Australia at war's end setting up his own business.No lawyers ever involved.

The second fellow was a prisoner in Changi.He and a mate escaped but recaptured.His mate was executed.The remainder of the story far too gruesome.We became friends a little after our first meeting.But again no lawyers involved and to most people he was a very successful farmer.

Why would lawyers be involved in those cases? If those veterans had gone to the navy for help, and the navy had said 'nah, PTSD isn't real, go away', would you still say they shouldn't have used any available legal channels to get the help they needed?

Providing a safe workplace isn't a theatre of war.

Many are quick to scoff at legal claims, but the flipside is that by holding people or organisations accountable, it makes it safer for all of us.

 

[Melburnian1]

Why would lawyers be involved in those cases? If those veterans had gone to the navy for help, and the navy had said 'nah, PTSD isn't real, go away', would you still say they shouldn't have used any available legal channels to get the help they needed?

Providing a safe workplace isn't a theatre of war.

Many are quick to scoff at legal claims, but the flipside is that by holding people or organisations accountable, it makes it safer for all of us.

I know individuals who fought the Department of Defence, receiving the applicable medical discharge or War Widows' pension
without ever involving solicitors and barristers.

 

[drron]

Certainly US vets have sued over PTSD.

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And why does one of our prominent legal firms advertise their services for Vets.

Military Compensation Lawyers | Shine Lawyers

Do you need military compensation lawyers? The team of experts at Shine Lawyers can help you. Learn more here and contact us today. No win, no fee.

www.shine.com.au

 

[Quickstatus]

Many are quick to scoff at legal claims, but the flipside is that by holding people or organisations accountable, it makes it safer for all of us.

Yes, the legal aspect of this do have its purpose. Always 2 sides to a coin.
Just bear in mind “the best possible outcome” according to Shine is only the best “legal” outcome. I have never seen a financial settlement make people medically whole.

 

[Quickstatus]

the navy had said 'nah, PTSD isn't real, go away',

Navy or anyone else would never say PTSD isn’t real. It is and it’s a well recognised psychiatric condition and is treatable.

The problem is going to be sorting out the fraudulent claims which will always exist when $$$ is involved

Somewhat unrelated but still a workplace compensable condition. What happened to the RSI epidemic of the 1980s that seem to affect full time and part time female public service workers?. I could never work out why bricklayers were never affected. I think it’s now called Occupational Overuse Symdrome.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Navy or anyone else would never say PTSD isn’t real. It is and it’s a well recognised psychiatric condition and is treatable.

The problem is going to be sorting out the fraudulent claims which will always exist when $$$ is involved

Yes, thankfully that is the position today. But going back to the 70s references in drron's post that may not have always been the case: The history of forgetting, from shell shock to PTSD

And why does one of our prominent legal firms advertise their services for Vets.

Military Compensation Lawyers | Shine Lawyers

Do you need military compensation lawyers? The team of experts at Shine Lawyers can help you. Learn more here and contact us today. No win, no fee.

www.shine.com.au

I think following on from my comment above, there are some issues where veterans might not be getting the right treatment, or the right recognition. That's a good example where legal action can help achieve those goals, or start the process for change.

Agree with Quickstatus that financial settlements rarely make people medically whole, but it can go some way to easing the situation.

 

[Melburnian1]

Agree with Quickstatus that financial settlements rarely make people medically whole, but it can go some way to easing the situation.

Bodgy claims though are a real problem. The lure of the almightly $ is difficult for some to resist.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Bodgy claims though are a real problem. The lure of the almightly $ is difficult for some to resist.

And that's were a court case may come in to play, to rule on the legitimacy of claims.

But regardless of the number of false claims, those that are true deserve the right compensation.

This is also Australia we're talking about, not the USA. We're not talking tens of millions of dollars. Last year a Queensland police officer had their claim for PTSD upheld by the courts and was awarded just over $1 million. Now if you can't work again, or can't earn the same level again, that pays off the mortgage and leaves a bit over.

 

[Quickstatus]

But regardless of the number of false claims, those that are true deserve the right compensation.

Actually: Right treatment and support

 

[Quickstatus]

Bodgy claims though are a real problem. The lure of the almightly $ is difficult for some to resist.

More commonly it is a difference of opinion in degree of disability.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Actually: Right treatment and support

Agree... but the right treatment and support may not pay off the mortgage, especially if you can’t return to earning the same income you previously enjoyed.

 

[Vic]

Isn't hindsight a wonder to behold.

Innately, I wouldn't want to be in that role (quite rightly, no HR individual would accept me even if I tried to sneak in) but she wanted to undertake those duties (for which there are more applicants than places, generally) and signed up for them, so isn't it fair to expect that she's able to cope with this sort of event?

She was assessed and considered suitable to cope, up until the point that the event happened and PTSD took hold. The question is meaningless without a magical crystal ball.

 

[Vic]

You make good points.I diagnosed 2 cases of PTSD in men in their late 70s who both has suffered from it for nearly 40 years.Each according to their wives had suffered continuosly for that time.They both came to light when they were admitted to a hospital in the late 70s.Both had kept good jobs for the whole period and were regarded as successful.
The presentation was severe nightmares with screaming etc.Sitting down and talking to them was the first time they had told anyone apart from their wives what had happened.

The first fellow was in the Royal Navy.He was on a destroyer sunk making a run across the Mediterranean to Malta.He was the only survivor.Put on another destroyer sunk escorting a convoy from Canada.This time 6 survivors.Left the Navy and became a merchant seaman.This time he his ship was sunk on an Arctic convoy.once again the only survivor.Never went to sea again and came to Australia at war's end setting up his own business.No lawyers ever involved.

The second fellow was a prisoner in Changi.He and a mate escaped but recaptured.His mate was executed.The remainder of the story far too gruesome.We became friends a little after our first meeting.But again no lawyers involved and to most people he was a very successful farmer.

Different times and different standards - "be a man and get on with it"...

so much tragedy from WW1 onwards, read the stories of the Australian VC winners - there are plenty of hints of PTSD and suicide. I have family members form both world wars who came back liking a drink... And a whole new wave of suicides in the current generation of veterans.
I agree that while people might do what is needed in the moment to survive, deep down I doubt anyone of them just get on with it without impact.

Anyway, I long way removed from the problem for the FO in this case.

 

[jb747]

She was assessed and considered suitable to cope, up until the point that the event happened and PTSD took hold.

Was she? That's one reason her training, and recruitment records are so relevant.

 

[suze2000]

Actually: Right treatment and support

Which costs money.

And they also deserve to live above the poverty line for the remainder of their lives, I would have thought. Which is what the compensation is for. I have had two whiplash injuries that resulted in payouts when I was young, but the pain lingers and the money I have spent on physio and massage in an attempt to get relief would well exceed the small amounts I was paid out by the TAC. And chronic pain colours your whole life.

Whether she was suitable for the job or not, she was hired for it.

And now she has PTSD, and because of the way she trained, probably a sizeable debt for a career she can no longer pursue. I understand why she is looking for a way to at least salvage something of the future she had hoped to have.

 

[Vic]

Was she? That's one reason her training, and recruitment records are so relevant.

At face value by the fact she had a job...
I'm not dismissing the important of records etc., However, I'm sure you're not suggesting airlines employ pilots (or FOs) who are considered to be incapable of doing the job.

 

[Quickstatus]

right treatment and support

That’s why I’m generally against lawyer involvement.

Treat the medical problem but support the whole person.

Take out the costs of lawyers and you have a much bigger pot from which to do the above.

But it requires prior agreement from employer and employee.

the pain lingers and the money I have spent on physio and massage in an attempt to get relief would well exceed the small amounts I was paid out by the TAC

And I’m not sure that going via lawyers would have improved the situation

 

[drron]

That’s why I’m generally against lawyer involvement.

Treat the medical problem but support the whole person.

Take out the costs of lawyers and you have a much bigger pot from which to do the above.

But it requires prior agreement from employer and employee.


And I’m not sure that going via lawyers would have improved the situation

As the NZ no fault scheme does.

 

[suze2000]

And I’m not sure that going via lawyers would have improved the situation

Accident No 1: I went with a lawyer and got $20K which was almost $18 after the lawyer's fees were taken out.
Accident No 2: went direct, got $4K

Which do you think was the better outcome? Both collisions happened within 2 years of each other and were almost identical scenarios where the other driver drove through a stop sign.