Platinum "anytime" lounge Access ceases from 1 February 2011

[trippin_the_rift]

And oh no one has actually answered my question about what other business allows customers of their competitors to use the facilities for free just because that customer has been loyal in the past?

Apple lets me walk in and use unlimited free internet whenever I like, even if I don't own anything they make. I guess they're losing revenue to Microsoft by doing so .. which is clearly reflected in Apple's horrible run in the market over the last 5 years.

Again I will say I do not see why it is not unreasonable to expect a customer to be flying with Qantas on that day to use their facilities

Qantas, and some customers may agree with you - in which case you're right. It's customers who will quietly withdrawl their allegiance because they've been deceived by Qantas's "enhancements" that you need to worry about. If 800 posts is even remotely representative of the market - you're talking tens of millions of dollars being instantly wiped from the bottom line.

Doesn't matter who's right or wrong - Qantas will lose cash so long as they continue the downward spiral of not practicing what they preach.

Afterall, it's much cheaper to keep a customer than it is to get a new one.

 

[extracta]

No that is not valid because it is MUTUAL, a Virgin Blue customer using a Qantas lounge is not. As for reward for past travel fair enough in one way, but on the other hand why is it not unreasonable to expect you to continue flying Qantas to receive the benifits?

A frequent flyer program is not there to reward you for past travel. They just try to make it seem that way.

It is there to encourage you for future travel with the same airline.

As many have shown on this thread, QF has them by the short and curlies.

 

[ajw373]

A frequent flyer program is not there to reward you for past travel. They just try to make it seem that way.

It is there to encourage you for future travel with the same airline.

As many have shown on this thread, QF has them by the short and curlies.

Agree with you 100%...

 

[medhead]

Grow up.:!:

WTF. Is that code for don't pull you up when your out of order? You throw out the insult it was clearly aimed at those who replied to you post and you then continued it, simple english comprehension shows this to be the case. Given you pathetic response I can only assume the truth hurts. I also see that you are still unable to justify calling all posts extremely selfish. If you can't justify your statements like an adult, I can only suggest you need to do the growing up.

I also forgot to ask you to quote anywhere were I have insulted you.

No that is not valid because it is MUTUAL, a Virgin Blue customer using a Qantas lounge is not.

It's mutual? Sorry in what way does Qantas get money from someone who buys a ticket with another oneworld partner? It is a clear example where Qantas is providing a benefit to someone flying with a direct competitor. You asked a simple question and got an answer no point trying to modify the question after the fact. You also ignore the example given of priority pass, that's not mutual.

As for reward for past travel fair enough in one way, but on the other hand why is it not unreasonable to expect you to continue flying Qantas to receive the benifits?

Actually, one needs to continue to fly with qantas to continue to receive the benefits. So "no" I am not saying that is an unreasonable expectation. The opposite, in fact, the benefit is given on the basis of the flying that one has done with Qantas and it encourages one to continue to fly with qantas to continue receiving the benefit. Why is it unreasonable to expect Qantas to allow a platinum flyer to benefit from their loyalty to qantas when flying on a route that Qantas doesn't service? Frankly, Jetstar is not an acceptable alternative, Qantas consider them a totally separate airline whenever it suits and they can't have it both ways.

 

[ajw373]

Apple lets me walk in and use unlimited free internet whenever I like, even if I don't own anything they make. I guess they're losing revenue to Microsoft by doing so .. which is clearly reflected in Apple's horrible run in the market over the last 5 years.

Not quite the same because they are giving you that for free to get you into their shop in the hope that you will buy their product.

Qantas, and some customers may agree with you - in which case you're right. It's customers who will quietly withdrawl their allegiance because they've been deceived by Qantas's "enhancements" that you need to worry about. If 800 posts is even remotely representative of the market - you're talking tens of millions of dollars being instantly wiped from the bottom line.

Doesn't matter who's right or wrong - Qantas will lose cash so long as they continue the downward spiral of not practicing what they preach.

Afterall, it's much cheaper to keep a customer than it is to get a new one.

Qantas has not deceived anyone. They made the changes quite clear, though yes did put it in with other real enhancements. Seriously doubt that anyone would change SIGNIFICANT ammounts of business just because they have lost anytime lounge access. I bet most people here who have dummy spat over it would do that, afterall their platinums are so precious to them. Besides it's not like any other airline, especially in Australia is offering a product anywhere near like what Qantas is offering even with these "enhancements", oops changes.

 

[medhead]

I hope this change reduces the amount of crowding in the domestic J Lounges.

Anytime access was not currently available for the J lounge. So I can't see how it is going to reduce the crowd in the 4 J lounges.

Access to The Qantas Club lounges

Any reduction in crowds in the QP is going to short term with Qantas offering 2 bonii, so far, to join the QP.

 

[ajw373]

WTF. Is that code for don't pull you up when your out of order? You throw out the insult it was clearly aimed at those who replied to you post and you then continued it, simple english comprehension shows this to be the case. Given you pathetic response I can only assume the truth hurts. I also see that you are still unable to justify calling all posts extremely selfish. If you can't justify your statements like an adult, I can only suggest you need to do the growing up.

I also forgot to ask you to quote anywhere were I have insulted you..

Not even worth responding to really.....

It's mutual? Sorry in what way does Qantas get money from someone who buys a ticket with another oneworld partner? It is a clear example where Qantas is providing a benefit to someone flying with a direct competitor. You asked a simple question and got an answer no point trying to modify the question after the fact. You also ignore the example given of priority pass, that's not mutual.

No the question is still valid and yes when it comes to alliances the agreement is very much mutual so not in the same league. Indeed that is what airline alliances are all about. Additionally in some cases I beleive that airline X will pay airline Y for their passengers to use their lounges. As for priority pass etc that is a commercial agreement in so far as Priority pass will pay the lounge operator for the right of their customers to use the lounge.

Actually, one needs to continue to fly with qantas to continue to receive the benefits. So "no" I am not saying that is an unreasonable expectation. The opposite, in fact, the benefit is given on the basis of the flying that one has done with Qantas and it encourages one to continue to fly with qantas to continue receiving the benefit. Why is it unreasonable to expect Qantas to allow a platinum flyer to benefit from their loyalty to qantas when flying on a route that Qantas doesn't service? Frankly, Jetstar is not an acceptable alternative, Qantas consider them a totally separate airline whenever it suits and they can't have it both ways.

Jetstar is a different case in many ways because it is a Qantas owned airline and unless I am mistaken lounge access is still available even after these changes come in. However Virgin Blue on the other hand is a direct competitor so why should Qantas allow a Virgin Blue customer to use their facilities, even if that customer is/was a loyal Qantas passenger?

 

[medhead]

Seriously doubt that anyone would change SIGNIFICANT ammounts of business just because they have lost anytime lounge access. I bet most people here who have dummy spat over it would do that, afterall their platinums are so precious to them. Besides it's not like any other airline, especially in Australia is offering a product anywhere near like what Qantas is offering even with these "enhancements", oops changes.

Wrong! I've already moved flights to DJ. Out of about 100 flights I took last year I used anytime access twice. The fact is I cannot fly with Qantas 100% of the time, it is physically impossible. Removal of anytime access means that if I want to continue to have a comfortable flying experience then I need to get lounge access elsewhere. If I'm going to spend money doing that then I might as well switch flights. In my case, I have enough flying that I think I can get at least double gold.

In terms of product; for a 6am flight your right the Virgin product isn't anywhere near like the Qantas product. The virgin product is superior. The Lounge has proper expresso coffee, the food selection is as good as Qantas, Virgin actually provides priority boarding in practice not just in writing and I don't eat the rubbish Qantas breakfast.

 

[ajw373]

Wrong! I've already moved flights to DJ. Out of about 100 flights I took last year I used anytime access twice. The fact is I cannot fly with Qantas 100% of the time, it is physically impossible. Removal of anytime access means that if I want to continue to have a comfortable flying experience then I need to get lounge access elsewhere. If I'm going to spend money doing that then I might as well switch flights. In my case, I have enough flying that I think I can get at least double gold.

In terms of product; for a 6am flight your right the Virgin product isn't anywhere near like the Qantas product. The virgin product is superior. The Lounge has proper expresso coffee, the food selection is as good as Qantas, Virgin actually provides priority boarding in practice not just in writing and I don't eat the rubbish Qantas breakfast.

But do they offer anytime access or any of the other benifits of QFF?

 

[straitman]

You have to realise that all these discussions are a two way street. People on both sides of the 'discussion' (and I use the term lightly) have expressed opinions and not given consideration to the alternate view. I won't name names because those in question will either understand or simply continue in ignorance.

Maybe it is time to get back to being a little closer to the topic at hand rather than taking shots at people for having an alternate opinion.

I repeat my comments from last evening as it seems that several people have not taken heed.

[mod hat] Stick to debating the topic and stop sniping at each other! [/mod hat]

 

[medhead]

Not even worth responding to really.....

Good to see that you're not prepared to defend the indefensible. I can only hope that you'll remember how wrong you were this time before you start insulting people in the future.

No the question is still valid and yes when it comes to alliances the agreement is very much mutual so not in the same league. Indeed that is what airline alliances are all about. Additionally in some cases I beleive that airline X will pay airline Y for their passengers to use their lounges. As for priority pass etc that is a commercial agreement in so far as Priority pass will pay the lounge operator for the right of their customers to use the lounge.

I'm sorry exactly why would Airline X pay Airline Y when a top tier Airline Y passenger uses the Airline Y lounge? Your question was 'what business lets someone use their facilities when using the services of a competitor'. no mention of mutual swapping of use of facilities - they are still allow their own FF use their lounge facilities when flying on a competitor. no mention of whether they get paid.

Jetstar is a different case in many ways because it is a Qantas owned airline and unless I am mistaken lounge access is still available even after these changes come in. However Virgin Blue on the other hand is a direct competitor so why should Qantas allow a Virgin Blue customer to use their facilities, even if that customer is/was a loyal Qantas passenger?

You are totally missing the point about Jetstar. Jetstar are not an alternative to Qantas, Virgin Blue is vastly superior to Jetstar. If Qantas refuses to operate on a route why can't I choose the best alternative. Qantas have made a choice not to service OOL, for example; Qantas staff were borderline abusive the one time I flew jetstar domestic and if you try to ask for any service from Qantas when flying Jetstar they will basically tell you to get lost. The point is that Qantas choose to not provide a service on some routes and therefore have withdrawn from competing on those routes. Qantas is giving their competitors a free kick on these routes not anytime access.

The simple fact is that removing anytime access is supposed to be about increasing loyalty to Qantas, but from were I sit it does the opposite. You might think it is childish for me to reassess my position when circumstances change, but the fact remains that it is simple common sense to do so.

But do they offer anytime access or any of the other benifits of QFF?

irrelevant. I don't need anytime access with DJ. this is about Qantas anytime access and how it reduces loyalty to Qantas to remove it.

As for other benefits - well priority boarding (as I already mentioned) that actually happens, lounge access, luggage, priority check in.

 

[extracta]

But do they offer anytime access or any of the other benifits of QFF?

DJ don't offer anytime access.

The QFF program has one of if not the worst earn rates around. DJ doesn't offer that.

The QFF program has one of the worst redeem rates around. DJ doesn't offer that.

Award travel with the QFF program is a joke. DJ doesn't offer that.

QF does offer higher prices though.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Qantas has not deceived anyone. They made the changes quite clear, though yes did put it in with other real enhancements.

Well actually they are. QF spend millions trying to brand FF'ers into thinking Platinum is the best they have to offer - the finest of everything. First class check-in, First class lounges... priority this, priority that... Neil Perry bottled water from the center of antarctica - exclusive for you Mr & Mrs Platinum.

Then QF go and totally wipe out an entire benefit of Platinum.

Words not matching actions is NEVER a good sign and ALWAYS cause for alarm.

Seriously doubt that anyone would change SIGNIFICANT ammounts of business just because they have lost anytime lounge access. I bet most people here who have dummy spat over it would do that

Firstly, the only flyers who have loyalty to QF are self-funded in some way where they make the decision on how cash is spent on travel. Let's face it - if you're flying enough to maintain top tier status you're not short a buck. Generally this means you have more time to investigate how you can extract the most value from your dollar, and this includes maximizing perceived benefits like anytime access and extra points.

The other type of flyer does what their company tells them they have to do. These flyers 'loyalty' extends as far as what corporate agreement their company can line up with the carrier. Often price and schedule based flying where value is often not the reason behind the purchase.

So while Platinum's may not be SIGNIFICANTLY reducing spend as you suggest - I can guarantee SOME spend will be shifted to other carriers that value this type of loyalty. This is the 'foot in the door' other carriers have been looking for - and -- long term the tab will run well beyond any immediate cost savings.

 

[ajw373]

But do they offer anytime access or any of the other benifits of QFF?

The answer of course is no. From Virgin Blue's own website

The Lounge is located at Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide and Canberra domestic airports. Lounges can be accessed when travelling on an onward domestic flight with Virgin Blue. "

Oh with DJ you can buy single entry, but even at $35 a pop you still need to be travelling on Virgin Blue that day.

If you are not a member of The Lounge, you can purchase a Single Entry pass if you have an onward flight with Virgin Blue on the day of travel."

So in summary:

Domestic lounges, Virgin Blue 6, Qantas 20+ (including regional), So to score QF gets 1 point, so QF=1, DJ=0
Anytime access. Neither so still QF=1 DJ=0
Arrivals access: QF+1, so QF=2, DJ=0
International access. QF+1, so QF=3, DJ=0
Domestic Business lounges for Platinums. QF+1, so QF=4, DJ=0
Access to lounges of alliance partners. QF+1, so QF=5, DJ=0.

 

[ajw373]

Good to see that you're not prepared to defend the indefensible. I can only hope that you'll remember how wrong you were this time before you start insulting people in the future.

I did not insult anyone, so please leave it allone.

I'm sorry exactly why would Airline X pay Airline Y when a top tier Airline Y passenger uses the Airline Y lounge? Your question was 'what business lets someone use their facilities when using the services of a competitor'. no mention of mutual swapping of use of facilities - they are still allow their own FF use their lounge facilities when flying on a competitor. no mention of whether they get paid.

Why do they pay? Simple nothing is for free in this world. Everything always costs someone something.

You are totally missing the point about Jetstar. Jetstar are not an alternative to Qantas, Virgin Blue is vastly superior to Jetstar. If Qantas refuses to operate on a route why can't I choose the best alternative. Qantas have made a choice not to service OOL, for example; Qantas staff were borderline abusive the one time I flew jetstar domestic and if you try to ask for any service from Qantas when flying Jetstar they will basically tell you to get lost. The point is that Qantas choose to not provide a service on some routes and therefore have withdrawn from competing on those routes. Qantas is giving their competitors a free kick on these routes not anytime access.

No I am not missing the point, but your argument above has nothing what so ever to do with anytime lounge access. If you choose to fly to the Gold Coast on Virgin Blue because they are better than Jetstar (no argument here BTW) then fine, but why should you then be entitled to use the Qantas lounge? What do you do on the return trip where there is NO Qantas lounge or for that matter a DJ lounge.

As for Qantas giving the competitors a free kick, IMO letting a Virgin Blue customer use the Qantas lounge is giving them a free kick. Pulling out of a route because it isn't profitiable is pure business.

 

[ajw373]

Well actually they are. QF spend millions trying to brand FF'ers into thinking Platinum is the best they have to offer - the finest of everything. First class check-in, First class lounges... priority this, priority that... Neil Perry bottled water from the center of antarctica - exclusive for you Mr & Mrs Platinum.

Then QF go and totally wipe out an entire benefit of Platinum.

Words not matching actions is NEVER a good sign and ALWAYS cause for alarm.

The world never stays the same and if someone expects it to then they are in for a rude shock. Same is true in the airline business, programs do change, sometimes for better sometimes for the worse. As for the Qantas FF program, beleive me having travelled on many other airlines, used heaps of lounges, what we get in Australia from Qantas is a quantum leap above the rest. As for anytime access what other airline in the world offers this?

Firstly, the only flyers who have loyalty to QF are self-funded in some way where they make the decision on how cash is spent on travel. Let's face it - if you're flying enough to maintain top tier status you're not short a buck. Generally this means you have more time to investigate how you can extract the most value from your dollar, and this includes maximizing perceived benefits like anytime access and extra points.

The other type of flyer does what their company tells them they have to do. These flyers 'loyalty' extends as far as what corporate agreement their company can line up with the carrier. Often price and schedule based flying where value is often not the reason behind the purchase.

So while Platinum's may not be SIGNIFICANTLY reducing spend as you suggest - I can guarantee SOME spend will be shifted to other carriers that value this type of loyalty. This is the 'foot in the door' other carriers have been looking for - and -- long term the tab will run well beyond any immediate cost savings.

All well and good, but the other product in Australia at least is far from that of Qantas. What only 6 lounges with even more restrictive access agreements, no arrivals access, no international lounge access rights, how can the two even be compared? Maybe with the changes that are coming at DJ there may be some worry for Qantas, but for the time being I think they are doing ok and are not too worried that a few people might take their bat and ball and fly with DJ all because Qantas have taken anytime access off them.

 

[extracta]

So in summary:

Domestic lounges, Virgin Blue 6, Qantas 20+ (including regional), So to score QF gets 1 point, so QF=1, DJ=0
Anytime access. Neither so still QF=1 DJ=0
Arrivals access: QF+1, so QF=2, DJ=0
International access. QF+1, so QF=3, DJ=0
Domestic Business lounges for Platinums. QF+1, so QF=4, DJ=0
Access to lounges of alliance partners. QF+1, so QF=5, DJ=0.

Your scoring system doesn't take into account the fact that people who are paying for the tickets out of their own pockets pay a lot more to fly QF from one place to another than they would with DJ.

But there is no question that QANTAS is the big winner here, unfortunately it is at the expense of their frequent flyers.

And as long as QANTAS have loyal frequent flyers they won't have to make their FF program any better.

 

[straitman]

All well and good, but the other product in Australia at least is far from that of Qantas. What only 6 lounges with even more restrictive access agreements, no arrivals access, no international lounge access rights, how can the two even be compared? Maybe with the changes that are coming at DJ there may be some worry for Qantas, but for the time being I think they are doing ok and are not too worried that a few people might take their bat and ball and fly with DJ all because Qantas have taken anytime access off them.

DJ do have arrivals access though it is not well advertised.

 

[ajw373]

DJ do have arrivals access though it is not well advertised.

It's not what their website says... It say's access is available with an ONWARDS flight on DJ.

 

[ajw373]

Your scoring system doesn't take into account the fact that people who are paying for the tickets out of their own pockets pay a lot more to fly QF from one place to another than they would with DJ.

But there is no question that QANTAS is the big winner here, unfortunately it is at the expense of their frequent flyers.

And as long as QANTAS have loyal frequent flyers they won't have to make their FF program any better.

True the scoring system doesn't take lots of other things into account (mostly subjective things), though think your statement above is a bit off the mark. Many people who pay out of their own pockets still choose to fly Qantas, this little black duck being one such person. Only once in the past few years have I found that DJ is significantly cheaper than Qantas for me to make an active decision to not fly Qantas. On all other flights I have done Qantas is either the cheapest or only slightly higher. On top of that a lot of the flights I do domesticly are connections to international flights so other things such as bag through checking and easy terminal transfers come into play too.

As for making their program better, from where I sit the program has evolved over time, in some cases for the worse and some cases for the better. But overall it is still one of the better programs out there. DJ in particular has a long way to go before it comes close, and really until they join an alliance I reckon they will be playing 2nd fiddle as a purly domestic program is IMO half a program.