Platinum "anytime" lounge Access ceases from 1 February 2011

[AnonymousCoward]

For you to even make this statement I have to challenge your knowledge of airline yield management.

Why so?

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[straitman]

Why so?

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Put simply it does not matter how much profit comes from an individual ticket and often tickets are sold at a loss. There is a minimum average figure required for a flight to be profitable and this is what is important.

To get that minimum figure tickets can and are sold at a loss to put bums on seats and so increase the overall average. Yield management knows that on a particular flight that a certain number of seats are likely to be empty. They then offer a number of tickets at a low cost in an effort to fill this seats. For example if the expected empty seats are 10 of 100 then it is much better to fill them the seats for $50 each (loss making) than not at all. From this silly little example we have just bumped the seat average for the flight by $5 per seat.

At the other end of the scale they will nearly always leave some seats for last minute sales to businessmen who must get on the flight at any cost. If they go empty sometimes it is more than made up by the times they are full.

The short version of a very complex topic.

 

[Alanslegal]

However I bet the intent of this revised wording is to exclude those flying in on a QF domestic flight (or for that matter 3K flight) and out again on NZ, SQ, TG, UA, DL or any other non affiliated carrier. Once again for the probably small number of QFF'ers that would do this, let alone be acquainted with the nuances of the rules that would allow them to access, it again seems petty and mean spirited.

That is very mean spirited :evil: :evil: :evil:

In Qantas' attempt to stop your suggestion from happening, Qantas will also pi** off premium travellers who have top tier status eg. A WP flies in first class into BKK and then connects onto say Bangkok Airways in economy to Koh Samui. At least previously, that passenger got anytime access to the BKK QP. Then not too long ago Red Roo suggested that its all good and they can access the international lounge (appears both QP and Flounge) because they have flown on the day with QF. Now these updated conditions indicate no international lounge access because that passenger next onward flight is on Bangkok Airways - even though the person spent say $5K for the fare alone and earnt 1400SC prior to that travel.

 

[Danger]

It's only really SIN that can be used as an arrival lounge as such (and yes I have done that flying in on QF and other airlines - in fact did so this afternoon, to take a conference call and to use anytime access for the very last time , after my TG flight).

I've done it in BKK, too.

What other airline would give you access?

Personally, and with due respect, I'm not a fan of this argument. It reaks of 'well he did it, why can't ?'. That is, in the reverse, just because someone else stole lollies from the lolly shop, doesn't mean it's right for the next person. I realise I'm being a bit convoluted here but my argument is, just because no other (or very few other) airlines don't offer anytime access, so what? Qantas is always telling the world it's a premium airline, if not the premium airline. AAdvantage, for example, offers four system wide upgrades (I'm not fully up with it) to their top tier. By your argument, QF should do the same. That is, AA offers it, so should QF.

Benefits come and go. Expecting everything to stay the same forever is just naive.

Similarly, loyalty is tangible and does not last forever. QF may be about to find that out.

Those operating costs will remain largely unchanged regardless. There is a certain number of staff required at anytime, rent etc. Whether you enter the lounge or not is not going to alter much of that cost. It is already factored into the base operating cost of the lounge.

Exactly. Fixed costs. And, again, there's the argument raised countless posts ago of what evidence QF has of the costs associated with anytime access. If I recall correctly, not one poster here has said that their anytime access has been recorded. Other than the possibility that the lounge agents keep a tally in their head and send an email through to headquarters at the end of the day.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Exactly. Fixed costs.

Costs are only fixed in the short term. In the longer term QF does refurbish lounges, or expand them (Perth, Canberra etc).

And, again, there's the argument raised countless posts ago of what evidence QF has of the costs associated with anytime access. If I recall correctly, not one poster here has said that their anytime access has been recorded. Other than the possibility that the lounge agents keep a tally in their head and send an email through to headquarters at the end of the day.

And I as mentioned before - maybe QF did a survey. And none of us were impacted or recalled being recorded. There isn't a need to record every single time Anytime access is used for it to get a statistically significant sample

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Put simply it does not matter how much profit comes from an individual ticket and often tickets are sold at a loss. There is a minimum average figure required for a flight to be profitable and this is what is important.

To get that minimum figure tickets can and are sold at a loss to put bums on seats and so increase the overall average. Yield management knows that on a particular flight that a certain number of seats are likely to be empty. They then offer a number of tickets at a low cost in an effort to fill this seats. For example if the expected empty seats are 10 of 100 then it is much better to fill them the seats for $50 each (loss making) than not at all. From this silly little example we have just bumped the seat average for the flight by $5 per seat.

Yes - this tired old cannard.

QF Yield Management will still be able to sell those seats for $50 to some other punter - who probably isn't a WP, and won't use the lounge at all. They might have to see it for $45, but they'll still come out ahead.

Anyway, it seems that people here are really interested in complaining, rather than looking at the situation in the cold hard sunlight of reality, so please all carry on. I'm out.

 

[JohnPhelan]

And, again, there's the argument raised countless posts ago of what evidence QF has of the costs associated with anytime access. If I recall correctly, not one poster here has said that their anytime access has been recorded. Other than the possibility that the lounge agents keep a tally in their head and send an email through to headquarters at the end of the day.

If we're talking about international lounge access, then they could easily keep a tally, as you're required to show your boarding pass (which is generally then scanned)to gain access.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

These days arrivals and departures are separated in Bangkok and you are not supposed to re-enter the international departures area unless you have an onward international boarding pass. You will be stopped and asked for a boarding pass.

This arrangement has been in place since security was moved to just after passport control.

However - I do believe there is some loopholes that exist and you may find your way to bypass the person checking boarding passes and go straight to security.

Of course anyone connecting internationally in BKK could get back to the Qantas lounges without a problem.

 

[straitman]

Yes - this tired old cannard.

QF Yield Management will still be able to sell those seats for $50 to some other punter - who probably isn't a WP, and won't use the lounge at all. They might have to see it for $45, but they'll still come out ahead.

Anyway, it seems that people here are really interested in complaining, rather than looking at the situation in the cold hard sunlight of reality, so please all carry on. I'm out.

You can call it a 'tired old cannard' or anything else you like. My post was not a comment on the lounge access argument but simply a statement of fact (not emotion) about how it actually works in the real world :!:

Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.

 

[oz_mark]

You can call it a 'tired old cannard' or anything else you like. My post was not a comment on the lounge access argument but simply a statement of fact (not emotion) about how it actually works in the real world :!:

Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.

The other thing about how it work in the real world, well, in big companies, is that they have people that like to build financial models. I dare say that removing Anytime Access has been modelled to death, and there will have been assumptions about how many pax would have a dummy spit (ok, maybe not expressed that way in the assumptions) and leave.

 

[medhead]

Anyway, it seems that people here are really interested in complaining, rather than looking at the situation in the cold hard sunlight of reality, so please all carry on. I'm out.

Actually, people are discussing how this change affects them and how they will respond to the change, how their travel will change in response. All this stuff that people keep bringing up about Qantas' right to make changes and the finanicial situation is interesting, but it also ignores the cold hard sunlight of reality that people also have a right to respond to changes that happen and that this is a place where those responses are being discussed.

You chipped in with a couple of important points, but still nothing that hasn't been mentioned already, to add to this "pointless conversation" (those were your words I believe). In effect the nett contribution to the conversation seems to have been to call a few of us whingers, because we have mentioned that this change will cause us to change our travel habits. Perhaps you might have reflected on how pointless this conversation is before joining it. :-|

 

[Bundy Bear]

Just watching the Virgin Blue plane pull out from the gate before heading to the Qantas Business lounge in Canberra before my Virgin Blue flight back to Brisbane.

Canberra is a different place than it was a few years back, but Virgin Blue get to use the old part. I guess there is a bit more work to go.

Business lounge is big and, what a nice view of the car park.

Terminal Circuit, Canberra International Airport ACT 2609, Australia

Sent from my iPhone using AFF Mobile

 

[dfcatch]

I've done it in BKK, too.



Personally, and with due respect, I'm not a fan of this argument. It reaks of 'well he did it, why can't ?'. That is, in the reverse, just because someone else stole lollies from the lolly shop, doesn't mean it's right for the next person. I realise I'm being a bit convoluted here but my argument is, just because no other (or very few other) airlines don't offer anytime access, so what? Qantas is always telling the world it's a premium airline, if not the premium airline. AAdvantage, for example, offers four system wide upgrades (I'm not fully up with it) to their top tier. By your argument, QF should do the same. That is, AA offers it, so should QF.



Similarly, loyalty is tangible and does not last forever. QF may be about to find that out.



Exactly. Fixed costs. And, again, there's the argument raised countless posts ago of what evidence QF has of the costs associated with anytime access. If I recall correctly, not one poster here has said that their anytime access has been recorded. Other than the possibility that the lounge agents keep a tally in their head and send an email through to headquarters at the end of the day.

I've seen CNS have a tally sheet and mark down:

- entry method (QC,WP,SG,CL,J, anytime etc)
- guests (pass,accompanied, # etc)
- airline being flown

So I know they were checking at some point.

Of course, just yesterday I entered CNS QP, SYD J, MEL J, and MEL J today - all only flashing WP card with no questions or verification.

 

[nlagalle]

I've seen CNS have a tally sheet and mark down:

- entry method (QC,WP,SG,CL,J, anytime etc)
- guests (pass,accompanied, # etc)
- airline being flown

So I know they were checking at some point.

Of course, just yesterday I entered CNS QP, SYD J, MEL J, and MEL J today - all only flashing WP card with no questions or verification.

I've always had that. Never asking me for flight details at all.

 

[JohnK]

I've seen CNS have a tally sheet and mark down:

- entry method (QC,WP,SG,CL,J, anytime etc)
- guests (pass,accompanied, # etc)
- airline being flown

So I know they were checking at some point.

So far CNS has been the only Qantas Lounge mentioned where they had a tally sheet at some stage. Seems extremely foolish if QF used the statistics gathered in CNS to make a decision on anytime access to their lounges Australia wide or even worldwide.

So can someone explain how the statistics were captured in CNS? If flashing a Platinum card on entry is the assumption made that the Platinum is travelling another airline or they are not travelling at all? Have they arrived in from another flight? Or was the Platinum asked to provide their flight details? And if the Platinum was asked to provide flight details would you freely volunteer them? Why?

Unless a Platinum volunteered the fact they were using anytime access and they were not flying QF then the statistics gathered are meaningless. The lounge staff can't make assumptions.

I remember one time in BNE Qantas Lounge I showed my Platinum card but the person at reception did not want to let me inside asking for a boarding pass. I showed her the boarding pass then made a complaint to the supervisor about her actions as all I needed to show on entry was a Platinum card not the boarding pass. He agreed.

Of course, just yesterday I entered CNS QP, SYD J, MEL J, and MEL J today - all only flashing WP card with no questions or verification.

And the staff at each of the Lounges is/was clueless of the circumstances responsible for your entry into the lounges.

 

[Danger]

If we're talking about international lounge access, then they could easily keep a tally, as you're required to show your boarding pass (which is generally then scanned)to gain access.

Good point. However, anytime access has been removed from all lounges.

I've seen CNS have a tally sheet and mark down:

- entry method (QC,WP,SG,CL,J, anytime etc)
- guests (pass,accompanied, # etc)
- airline being flown

So I know they were checking at some point.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Of course, just yesterday I entered CNS QP, SYD J, MEL J, and MEL J today - all only flashing WP card with no questions or verification.

A point that has become very clear from the wake thread. If Qantas is so concerned about lounge overcrowding, surely the first thing they'd do is enforce their own rules, with anytime access restricted only to the Qantas Club. However, as has been proven many times, it seems anytime access has been perfectly acceptable in the J Lounges as well. I myself did this twice on the wake, simply by showing my Platinum card, with no questions asked (or tally sheets marked).

 

[dfcatch]

So far CNS has been the only Qantas Lounge mentioned where they had a tally sheet at some stage. Seems extremely foolish if QF used the statistics gathered in CNS to make a decision on anytime access to their lounges Australia wide or even worldwide.

So can someone explain how the statistics were captured in CNS? If flashing a Platinum card on entry is the assumption made that the Platinum is travelling another airline or they are not travelling at all? Have they arrived in from another flight? Or was the Platinum asked to provide their flight details? And if the Platinum was asked to provide flight details would you freely volunteer them? Why?

Unless a Platinum volunteered the fact they were using anytime access and they were not flying QF then the statistics gathered are meaningless. The lounge staff can't make assumptions.

I remember one time in BNE Qantas Lounge I showed my Platinum card but the person at reception did not want to let me inside asking for a boarding pass. I showed her the boarding pass then made a complaint to the supervisor about her actions as all I needed to show on entry was a Platinum card not the boarding pass. He agreed.


And the staff at each of the Lounges is/was clueless of the circumstances responsible for your entry into the lounges.

Hi John,

Whenever I entered the CNS lounge (with or without guests) I was always asked what flight I was on. Same for any guests. They would then mark it on the sheet in the "class of access" column, the "airline flown" column and guest details.

I remember noting just how complex the sheet was and it made me think of just how many qualifications for access there are.

I'm always very nice to the ladies at the CNS QP as they do get to know you and I find them especially friendly and helpful compared to the "dragons" in the big smoke

They also used your flight details to come and get you sometimes if you were tardy leaving the lounge (when it was quiet).

Of course lately they have the Access Placard on the desk and the last two times (this month) I've not been asked anything as I flash the card.

 

[dk4]

So far CNS has been the only Qantas Lounge mentioned where they had a tally sheet at some stage... was the Platinum asked to provide their flight details?

I only used the CNS QP twice in 2010. (So, sorry, only a small sample size from me.)

On both occasions; I glimpsed the tally sheet being discussed, however my entry strategy didn't vary - it was "flash only", with no questions asked. (However, I was departing on QF each time, and it's worth mentioning that I have been "expected" in smaller QPs before, so the dragons may have a printout of who is flying and "expected" to use the lounge that day. Thus after glimpsing the name on my card, she may have been able to cross-reference without the need to ask what flight I was on?! The lounge was not busy, on either visit.)

 

[Sprucegoose]

Just watching the Virgin Blue plane pull out from the gate before heading to the Qantas Business lounge in Canberra before my Virgin Blue flight back to Brisbane.

Canberra is a different place than it was a few years back, but Virgin Blue get to use the old part. I guess there is a bit more work to go.

Business lounge is big and, what a nice view of the car park.

Sent from my iPhone using AFF Mobile

Yes J is large but doesn't get the views!!

The VB terminal will be upgraded next along with TT and whoever else is there.

I think the J lounge is one of the better ones

 

[JohnPhelan]

Just watching the Virgin Blue plane pull out from the gate before heading to the Qantas Business lounge in Canberra before my Virgin Blue flight back to Brisbane.

No offence, but this is EXACTLY the problem - you were doing one flight only (not connecting off a QF flight, a situation some people have mentioned), you were not flying on QF, but you were using the QP/J Lounge - and you even had to change terminal to do so!

I think QF is absolutely right to crack down on this; I'm quite sure that this was not the sort of situation QF had in mind when it introduced "anytime access''. :shock: