PoLi payment error - lost funds

[robinsparkles]

hi all, i've posted about my predicament in the Qantas thread but it has now become a general question.
I attempted to book a Qantas flight on 25th April online and paid via PoLi. There seemed to be a glitch in the payment processing screen but otherwise went through ok.
Funds left my ANZ savings account.
No eticket received from Qantas and upon following up Qantas advised they can only see an attempted payment and I need to process payment again on the phone using a credit card which I did.
Then I called ANZ who have taken a few weeks to advise that they cannot recover the funds.

I've called Qantas several times and some of the more competent staff have been able to confirm they can only see the 25/4 Poli payment as an attempt. Most of the other staff can only see my successful subsequent credit card payment which is no help.

Is there any other option I can try to get my money back (roughly 3k)? I'm not even sure where the funds have gone (stuck somewhere in the Poli platform or unreconciled/lost within Qantas) . From looking online Poli takes no responsibility for payment errors and I have tried discussing with ANZ again.

 

[Mwenenzi]

Someone has your money.
Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA)

Home | Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA)

www.afca.org.au

Banking deposits and payments complaints | AFCA

AFCA offers fair, independent resolution for banking-related complaints, ensuring just outcomes for consumers. Click here to see how AFCA can help.

www.afca.org.au

We provide consumers and small businesses with fair, free and independent dispute resolution for financial complaints

Edit

POLi Payments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[robinsparkles]

Someone has your money.
Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA)

Home | Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA)

www.afca.org.au

Banking deposits and payments complaints | AFCA

AFCA offers fair, independent resolution for banking-related complaints, ensuring just outcomes for consumers. Click here to see how AFCA can help.

www.afca.org.au

Thanks, I will try this in reference to ANZ but Poli isn't even listed as an option to complain about.
It's so bizarre, there isn't even a way to contact Poli as they refer you back to your bank.

 

[oz_mark]

I will try this in reference to ANZ but Poli isn't even listed as an option to complain about.
It's so bizarre, there isn't even a way to contact Poli as they refer you back to your bank.

Poli is listed as Poli Payments

 

[Quickstatus]

Is there any other option

Basically you will need you bank to do a trace.

In future use a $50 Qantas gift card instead of PoLi

 

[robinsparkles]

Basically you will need you bank to do a trace.

In future use a $50 Qantas gift card instead of PoLi

When I initially called ANZ I raised a dispute on the transaction which they've now finalised as closed with no further action to be taken but yes I think a trace would have been the right thing to ask for instead. What does a trace do?

Lesson learned that I will never use anything but a credit card for these payments

 

[robinsparkles]

Poli is listed as Poli Payments

Thanks for that, I think I'll still have to complain in relation to ANZ though as I haven't reached out to Poli yet.

 

[Quickstatus]

What does a trace do

look into the details of a transaction - origins, intermediary, destination. Thats what they do when you dispute a transaction.

 

[robinsparkles]

look into the details of a transaction - origins, intermediary, destination. Thats what they do when you dispute a transaction.

Thanks, but if they've already stated that they've concluded the dispute raised with no outcome can I still ask for a trace? is it one and the same?
Tried to call through now to ask but got told to call within business hours

 

[Quickstatus]

can I still ask for a trace

As I said a transaction dispute usually involves a trace. But Im not a Bank

 

[robinsparkles]

An update on this, ANZ are now saying that they attempted to recover funds but the recipient bank (Qantas bank account) refused so I should try to get evidence from Qantas that the payment wasn't received.
Of course once I asked the Qantas call centre if there's a way to get confirmation that my funds weren't received they said to raise a customer care form on the website.

I haven't raised an AFCA complaint yet as I'm starting to think this is a Qantas error, that my funds are sitting around, unallocated, on their side.

 

[NM]

An update on this, ANZ are now saying that they attempted to recover funds but the recipient bank (Qantas bank account) refused so I should try to get evidence from Qantas that the payment wasn't received.
Of course once I asked the Qantas call centre if there's a way to get confirmation that my funds weren't received they said to raise a customer care form on the website.

I haven't raised an AFCA complaint yet as I'm starting to think this is a Qantas error, that my funds are sitting around, unallocated, on their side.

Wow, what a difficult situation to find yourself in. I really don't know how I would handle such a situation.

Its most unlikely that any person you can get to speak with at Qantas via their call centres is ever going to be able to help as they won't have the ability to understand nor the access to the systems to find the money.

It would appear that you will need to get something in writing from Qantas (or their bank) that they received the funds. You may have this from your original enquiry through ANZ where Qantas' bank refused to return the funds. If there is some sort of reference to the transaction then you may need to head towards a legal path (whatever the Small Claims options are in your state). It would appear that Qantas has received you money, has refused to return it, and has not provided the goods or services for which that money was originally given to them. It seems you will somehow need to get Qantas to admit they have received your money and to admit they did not apply that money to your booking and hence they need to refund it. Ouch ... not going to be easy, I expect.

 

[robinsparkles]

Wow, what a difficult situation to find yourself in. I really don't know how I would handle such a situation.

Its most unlikely that any person you can get to speak with at Qantas via their call centres is ever going to be able to help as they won't have the ability to understand nor the access to the systems to find the money.

It would appear that you will need to get something in writing from Qantas (or their bank) that they received the funds. You may have this from your original enquiry through ANZ where Qantas' bank refused to return the funds. If there is some sort of reference to the transaction then you may need to head towards a legal path (whatever the Small Claims options are in your state). It would appear that Qantas has received you money, has refused to return it, and has not provided the goods or services for which that money was originally given to them. It seems you will somehow need to get Qantas to admit they have received your money and to admit they did not apply that money to your booking and hence they need to refund it. Ouch ... not going to be easy, I expect.

Thank you for the advice, I think that's exactly the route we may have to go down. The stress and frustration is unbelievable, in this digital age it shouldn't be so difficult.

 

[33kft]

POLi is the worst. How AusPost gave legitimacy to a site that hijacks your browser to make transfers out of your accounts after you enter your internet banking credentials is beyond me. Even the banks hate it and have warned against it time and again but they haven't blocked it for whatever their reasoning is.

Banks concerned over POLi security

Payments intermediary accused of site spoofing and mirroring.

www.itnews.com.au

Buying online during Level 3? Banks warn against popular payment system

It's used by more than 4000 Kiwi businesses, but banks aren't convinced it's secure.

www.1news.co.nz

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

I remember POLi back when it was the original dodgy ActiveX control and I love this paragraph from their wikipedia page:

POLi Version 1 was an ActiveX control. This version was used by some, but never gained traction due to security concerns with ActiveX. This version is no longer operational. Greg Day, a security analyst at McAfee stated "Using ActiveX for online payments is the kind of thing that would make me run a mile. [It] is probably the most used route for hackers to get in ... and steal personal information.".[19][20] Since 2008 the system has been operating on the .NET technology platform. This still gives rise to possible security breaches via downloading untrusted software, and the possible infiltration of malware.[21]​

 

[hydrabyss]

Thank you for the advice, I think that's exactly the route we may have to go down. The stress and frustration is unbelievable, in this digital age it shouldn't be so difficult.

I had this issues many years ago with Virgin. At the time I had slow internet which I blamed for the issue and the payment never came up as received on their end. It took many phone calls as I was being told the money would go back to my account as they did not have it. I always felt the person I was talking to did not understand the issue was on their end as the money left my account.
I can't remember exactly how it got resolved but I finally got someone who understood and was able to contact someone else who checked the transactions at the time of the issue to find it. The funds where there but had not linked to anything.
I have had a similar thing with a hotel payment at checkout not link to the transaction and it took ages to finally get someone to check their bank records at the time. I think the issue is everything is so automated that many staff can't understand that something can go wrong and it almost takes a miracle to find someone who takes the time to look.

 

[robinsparkles]

I had this issues many years ago with Virgin. At the time I had slow internet which I blamed for the issue and the payment never came up as received on their end. It took many phone calls as I was being told the money would go back to my account as they did not have it. I always felt the person I was talking to did not understand the issue was on their end as the money left my account.
I can't remember exactly how it got resolved but I finally got someone who understood and was able to contact someone else who checked the transactions at the time of the issue to find it. The funds where there but had not linked to anything.
I have had a similar thing with a hotel payment at checkout not link to the transaction and it took ages to finally get someone to check their bank records at the time. I think the issue is everything is so automated that many staff can't understand that something can go wrong and it almost takes a miracle to find someone who takes the time to look.

This sounds about right, thanks for that. It might take a rehaul of Qantas call centres for this miracle to happen for me. You wait hours on hold for staff who aren't properly trained to understand or investigate a query of this nature.

 

[hydrabyss]

This sounds about right, thanks for that. It might take a rehaul of Qantas call centres for this miracle to happen for me. You wait hours on hold for staff who aren't properly trained to understand or investigate a query of this nature.

From my understanding is poli just makes sure the funds are leaving your account and entering the other. They never hold it, so there is only 2 places it can be. My guess is Qantas got the funds but they weren't attached to anything to show payment for your flight. All you need is one person to contact someone in accounting who can check the bank records and they will find it. Funny thing is trying to find someone who listens and takes action is harder than finding the payment. Just persist as it took me 3-4 but I didn't know what the problem was so hopefully you can point them in the right direction.

But I still use it after my issue around 8 years ago and have never had a problem since.

 

[Alex A]

As I said a transaction dispute usually involves a trace. But Im not a Bank

I have had a similar experience where I bought Qantas tickets online on Qantas website for a domestic flight and was charged 3 times- 2 times by Poli which failed to register as a payment at the time of purchase but appeared on my CBA bank account the next day and once by BPAY which went through and was the transaction that resulted in my tickets being actually issued, with all three charges happening within 20 minutes of each other.
When I contacted CBA, they issued Qantas with a request for refund for the 2 Poli payments (date, time, amount, netbank transation number were provided) which they said were ignored by Qantas. When I contacted Qantas they said CBA was the issue and to provide a booking number. It is not possible to provide a booking number when no tickets have been issued despite money being deducted from my account. The netbank transaction number is the identifier of the transaction that Qantas needs to cross check with their finance dept. Anyway back and forth until Qantas agreed their finance dept had to track down the transactions (took 7 phone calls to Qantas). The Qantas staff (Qantas refunds phone no. 02 9123 6000) were extremely helpful and I am very grateful for them finally making it happen. Of course one has questions about their finance systems and the Poli system being reliable. Although the request for both refunds happened at the same time, one refund went through and the second refund was a month later, which required correlation with a Qantas refund number and CBA staff to track this refund number. Anyway it took 4 persistent months but I got my refunds!

 

[Mwenenzi]

I have had a similar experience where I bought Qantas tickets online on Qantas website for a domestic flight and was charged 3 times- 2 times by Poli which failed to register as a payment at the time of purchase but appeared on my CBA bank account the next day and once by BPAY which went through and was the transaction that resulted in my tickets being actually issued, with all three charges happening within 20 minutes of each other.

Why did you make 3 off separate transactions 20 minutes apart? Tickets are not always issued immediately. Payments can take time.

 

[33kft]

Poli by design is going to be a system without resilience. You can't just stick an overlay over a bank's internet banking system's UI (rather than a dedicated b2b interface between Poli and the bank) and expect it to work reliably.

It breaks every rule of systems design and does so for the most sensitive of systems, consumer payments.

The fact everyone finger points is no surprise. To QF, it's a payments provider which purports to provide deterministic status for payments that it cannot make or track itself, and to the bank it was just a consumer logging into IB and making a payment to another bank/account.

I just won't use it on principle, because I can't see how the consumer is protected against lost payments. The bank can't do a thing once the payment leaves your account, and Qantas will just take Poli at their word, despite Poli being utterly unable to transfer anything at all and only able to make an inference of what it thinks your bank did.

The only chance you have is to convince Qantas to do a manual reconciliation of a bank account that assumedly has thousands of transactions landing in it daily, no wonder they ask for a reference number - I doubt most of those transfers would be easily discernable from each other.