Proposed Social Media ban for under-16 kids

[Himeno]

Is AFF considered to be Social Media? If so, how would AFF ban under-16 kids?

'Enough is enough': Kids set to be blocked from social media

The Albanese government will tomorrow commit to introducing legislation on a social media age limit, follow...

www.9news.com.au

Define "social media".

I don't consider things like Twitter to be social media. I don't think the platform itself is social media. Social media is something that can be done on a platform.

 

[DejaBrew]

This proposal / bill is not perfection be the enemy of the good, this is actually going to make the internet even more dangerous than before, as kids would go from not keen to talk to adults, to completely stopped talking to adults (which I have explained in my earlier post.

With respect, you're selectively misquoting me.

I did not suggest that this specific proposal should be enacted in its current state. Rather, I argued that doing nothing until such time as a perfect solution is presented is not an appropriate position. Furthermore, I claimed that I don't see this as an excuse for the Government having cart blanche authority to enact frivolous legislation. I also stated that parents need to take control of the discussion and education of their children, but that they need appropriate support to do so and that the various social media companies + Govt cannot be absolved of any and all responsibility to police, regulate and otherwise manage these platforms and their accessibility.

I have no issues with you disagreeing with my perspective or presenting an opposing view, but please don't mischaracterise my comments.

 

[JohnK]

I’m not missing anything here. The law has to treat everyone the same. Otherwise is discrimination.

AFF will be treated exactly the same as every other social network platform unless the government selects some. It’s not your rules it’s theirs.

No. This is a form of censorship. I don't care what measures the government wants to put in place. The government cannot tell me how I should parent. What are they going to do? Prosecute me? Jail me?

I'm not sure I understand why people are submitting so quickly without a fight? Have we not been through enough the past 5 years? What is it going to take for people to wake up?

 

[DejaBrew]

Define "social media".

I don't consider things like Twitter to be social media. I don't think the platform itself is social media. Social media is something that can be done on a platform.

I suspect the Government is likely to consider something along the lines of the Wikipedia's broad strokes definition -:

Social media are interactive technologies that facilitate the creation, sharing and aggregation of content (such as ideas, interests, and other forms of expression) amongst virtual communities and networks.

Furthermore, social media encompasses an expanding suite of services -:

• Blogs (ex. HuffPost, Boing Boing)
• Business networks (ex. LinkedIn, XING)
• Collaborative projects (Mozilla, GitHub)
• Enterprise social networks (Yammer, Socialcast, Slack)
• Forums (Gaia Online, IGN)
• Microblogs (Twitter, Tumblr, Weibo)
• Photo sharing (Pinterest, Flickr, Photobucket)
• Products/services review (Amazon, Upwork)
• Social bookmarking (Delicious, Pinterest)
• Social gaming including MMORPGs (Fortnite, World of Warcraft)
• Social network (Facebook, Instagram, Baidu Tieba, VK, QZone, ShareChat, WeChat, LINE)
• Video sharing (YouTube, Vimeo)
• Virtual worlds (Second Life, Twinity)

Of course, the merits of applying age - or other - restrictions to each and every one of the above services will be hotly debated, but I anticipate that this will form the high level basis of what's considered in/out of scope.

As has been mentioned by others, this would also place AFF firmly in the spotlight given it falls under the "Forums" category. That being said, I could see the scope being significantly narrowed as the logistics of implementing restrictions to all these services/categories en masse would be exceedingly impractical.

 

[Chicken]

With respect, you're selectively misquoting me.

That's not the jist I got from your post; so thank you for clarifying. I agree that we need to take action, it's just that what is being proposed is only going to make the internet even more dangerous, so not doing this is actually better than doing this.

To give an example, remember when politicians were standing at the back of daily 11 AM press conferences, and let health officials front the cameras, in the last few years? That's what we should be doing with the internet social media problem.

 

[Viridis]

No. This is a form of censorship. I don't care what measures the government wants to put in place. The government cannot tell me how I should parent. What are they going to do? Prosecute me? Jail me?

I'm not sure I understand why people are submitting so quickly without a fight? Have we not been through enough the past 5 years? What is it going to take for people to wake up?

In principle, I agree completely.

By 5yrs, I assume that you are referring to the pandemic restrictions. Again, I agree. The Australian government(s) restrictions were heavy handed & authoritarian. The first resort of governments in Australia seems to be rules, restrictions & enforcement. It is generally very paternalistic.

But your comments are reactionary.

Something does need to be done; there is great harm being done to a generation of young people (up to and including death) and governments worldwide are receiving no co-operation from the tech companies involved. Furthermore, these companies wield extraordinary power and accept no responsibility for their actions, or inaction. This situation can’t be allowed to persist.

And whilst you may have the technical, financial & cognitive wherewithal (and time!) to properly parent your child, many, through no fault of their own don’t. And these poor souls - parent & children - need to be supported.

And, lastly, the government can & does tell you how to parent. You must make you child wear a seat belt (you have no parental discretion in this matter for eg), you must comply with a whole bunch of requirements for properly raising your child & there are legal penalties if you don’t.

 

[DejaBrew]

No. This is a form of censorship. I don't care what measures the government wants to put in place. The government cannot tell me how I should parent. What are they going to do? Prosecute me? Jail me?

In short? Yes they can and yes they will.

It's naive to suggest that we don't already live under such forms of censorship or legally enforceable legislation. According to the Attorney-General's Department, there is no Commonwealth legislation enshrining a general right to freedom of expression. The Australian Classification Board regularly refuses classification of certain films, books and video games, effectively censoring and banning them from the country. Australian Border Force prohibits the importation of certain books, video games, and media based on their non-fictional or fictional contents. The list goes on, but the point is that we are all subject to forms of censorship in everyday life, with breaches of such rules/regulations carrying risk of prosecution/fines/jail depending on the severity.

Thankfully we live in a country that - generally speaking, at least - does not frivolously prosecute the little guy over trivial matters and we enjoy many freedoms that citizens of other countries do not. However our everyday lives are very much governed by censorship and associated legislation - it's just that such censorship and legislation is (typically) aligned with maintaining what we broadly consider to be our morally and socially accepted norms.

 

[Chicken]

The government cannot tell me how I should parent. What are they going to do? Prosecute me? Jail me?

Yes, it's called DCS in QLD and DCJ in NSW, and etc etc

 

[Pushka]

No. This is a form of censorship. I don't care what measures the government wants to put in place. The government cannot tell me how I should parent. What are they going to do? Prosecute me? Jail me?
I’mm
I'm not sure I understand why people are submitting so quickly without a fight? Have we not been through enough the past 5 years? What is it going to take for people to wake up?

This isn’t censorship.

I don’t have issues with some kind of control over what kids can access. Many of us here have had teenage kids and know the risks.

What concerns me is that the elephant in the political room is that all of us will have to prove we aren’t kids.

 

[kamchatsky]

Reading more, it is most likely the implementation of Digital ID is the Trust Exchange:

The story behind the click-to-prove revolution

Bill Shorten’s ambitious move to enable an economy wide digital verification system marks a major shift towards giving citizens power over their own data.

www.afr.com

Trust exchange drives secure digital services | Department of Social Services Ministers

ministers.dss.gov.au

 

[jb747]

So we come full circle to a mandatory ID (card) system.....

And for the mods, this is an inherently political discussion.

 

[Himeno]

Reading more, it is most likely the implementation of Digital ID is the Trust Exchange:

The story behind the click-to-prove revolution

Bill Shorten’s ambitious move to enable an economy wide digital verification system marks a major shift towards giving citizens power over their own data.

www.afr.com

Trust exchange drives secure digital services | Department of Social Services Ministers

ministers.dss.gov.au

View attachment 414743

How would this work for people that don't have digital wallets?

 

[Chicken]

How would this work for people that don't have digital wallets?

It will be somewhere between myGov or MyGovID (or whatever the new name is which had just been announced).

If you don't have an Android or fruit phone, you already can't access myGovID, and do things like BAS, so

 

[Pushka]

If you don't have an Android or fruit phone, you already can't access myGovID, and do things like BAS, so

And many people don't need to have anything to do with either of those.

 

[kamchatsky]

So we come full circle to a mandatory ID (card) system.....

And for the mods, this is an inherently political discussion.

To be honest, I see an ID system is being inevitable, given all the cyber security, scams, bullying, deepfake issues in the last few years.

In many ways, Meta, Microsoft and Amazon probably knows a lot more of us than we ever imagine.

Note that both sides (Labor and Liberal) are supporting this legislation, so it is less political than other matters (e.g. the whole QF upgrade fiasco).

 

[JohnK]

And, lastly, the government can & does tell you how to parent. You must make you child wear a seat belt (you have no parental discretion in this matter for eg), you must comply with a whole bunch of requirements for properly raising your child & there are legal penalties if you don’t.

Only to a certain point and only if it is policed. Alcohol, seat belts, cigarettes, compulsory schooling etc.

Please note that regardless of what people may think of me I do not take advice from random strangers on what I should do and what I shouldn't do.

I can give my 8 year daughter alcohol and no one needs to know. Did I do something illegal? I don't care. I decide. By the way my daughter said to me that one of her 8 year old friends has had beer given to her by her parents.

I can let my daughter smoke. Yes that may be illegal but I don't care. I decide.

In Australia seat belts are compulsory for all. My daughter still uses Booster seat. In Thailand seat belts are not compulsory. I wear a seat belt but wife and daughter do not wear seat belt in the back seat.

I will allow my daughter to have access to tiktok, YouTube, toka Boca, Roblux etc. This has to be my decision. I just need to tell her that she is not allowed in public just in case some overzealous person dobs us in.

There are other important things the government should be doing. Huge controls on gambling including reducing pokies everywhere and online gambling sites, make cigarettes illegal, fix homelessness, aged care, health care etc etc.

No. Let's witness the dumbing down of society.

 

[Viridis]

Only to a certain point and only if it is policed. Alcohol, seat belts, cigarettes, compulsory schooling etc.

Indeed, so the issue is where one draws ‘the line’

Please note that regardless of what people may think of me I do not take advice from random strangers on what I should do and what I shouldn't do.

Not suggesting that you do …. merely offering an alternative point of view

I can give my 8 year daughter alcohol and no one needs to know. Did I do something illegal? I don't care. I decide. By the way my daughter said to me that one of her 8 year old friends has had beer given to her by her parents.

I can let my daughter smoke. Yes that may be illegal but I don't care. I decide.

That’s not really how society works. You don’t get to choose which laws you agree with and follow.

Whilst I do agree Australian law making is overbearing, I don’t get to choose which ones I obide by.

What one can do is vote for another political Party that offers a more palatable set of rules. Or offer yourself up for election and change the rules from within

In Australia seat belts are compulsory for all. My daughter still uses Booster seat. In Thailand seat belts are not compulsory. I wear a seat belt but wife and daughter do not wear seat belt in the back seat.

Apply your libertarian principles in Thailand and see how far you get

Their law enforcement institutions would be even less agreeable to you deciding which laws you follow and which you don’t

Only to a certain point and only if it is policed. Alcohol, seat belts, cigarettes, compulsory schooling etc.

Please note that regardless of what people may think of me I do not take advice from random strangers on what I should do and what I shouldn't do.

I can give my 8 year daughter alcohol and no one needs to know. Did I do something illegal? I don't care. I decide. By the way my daughter said to me that one of her 8 year old friends has had beer given to her by her parents.

I can let my daughter smoke. Yes that may be illegal but I don't care. I decide.

In Australia seat belts are compulsory for all. My daughter still uses Booster seat. In Thailand seat belts are not compulsory. I wear a seat belt but wife and daughter do not wear seat belt in the back seat.

I will allow my daughter to have access to tiktok, YouTube, toka Boca, Roblux etc. This has to be my decision. I just need to tell her that she is not allowed in public just in case some overzealous person dobs us in.

There are other important things the government should be doing. Huge controls on gambling including reducing pokies everywhere and online gambling sites, make cigarettes illegal, fix homelessness, aged care, health care etc etc.

No. Let's witness the dumbing down of society.

Curiously incoherent post @JohnK

You make a vigorous libertarian case and conclude with “the government should be doing more”. You can’t have it both ways

If you were being consistent, you allow people to decide for themselves whether they want to ruin their lives gambling, smoke & sort out their own aged care

It may have passed you by but society has already been dumbed down; the capacity for critical thinking has largely evaporated - one only has to look at election campaigns and correlate their results around the world for proof. The willingness for people to engage with ideas & develop arguments has completely disintegrated. They no longer have the concentration span. This is, in part, the result of spin-doctors and the megaphone of social media

For children, the consequences can be far more sinister

 

[Chicken]

the capacity for critical thinking has largely evaporated - one only has to look at election campaigns and correlate their results around the world for proof. The willingness for people to engage with ideas & develop arguments has completely disintegrated. They no longer have the concentration span. This is, in part, the result of spin-doctors and the megaphone of social media

For children, the consequences can be far more sinister

<redacted>

People have completely lost the ability to think about things, and really look for the best solution, but instead, come up with and buy into ideas which end up doing more harm, because this [idea] is what I think it should be.

<redacted>

I never would have imagined that the ALP would end up like this, being a populist party. I'm wrong obviously.

 

[DejaBrew]

Interesting hearing Dutton being interviewed in MEL this morning saying "...we want a bill passed by Christmas" and that there should be "...no carve outs for the companies [as] these social media companies couldn't care less about Australian kids, and we have to make sure that the online environment is a safe one for them and I hope that the government can present a bill to the parliament next week so that we can pass it by Christmas and give what I think would be a really good present to Australian families and to parents who want to say to kids that you need to be operating safely online."

A lot to unpack in those comments, but personally, the idea of ramming through new legislation without appropriate consultation/debate does concern me. As I've suggested in prior comments, I believe something needs to be done to address the problems, but this doesn't mean that we should simply rubber stamp new legislation for the sake of it.

Also saw this announcement today....

Online platforms would be legally responsible for keeping Australians safe under new 'duty of care' laws

Social media companies would be required to take preventative action against the worst foreseeable harms of their platforms under new laws the federal government has proposed.

www.abc.net.au

On paper, this makes a whole lot more sense, however as we've seen to date, successfully prosecuting these companies is much easier said than done.

 

[tgh]

will have to prove we aren’t kids

I have to do this every time I buy a can of spray paint from Bunnings…...