Qantas Advertises "Fully Refundable" - but it Isnt!

[Anna]

With this offer being so restrictive it's really brought home to me how QF isn't a true international airline, just an Asia-Pacific one with a couple of token European destinations. And even within Asia Pacific it's hard to find a flight that fits this offer - I can't find a QF-metal flight to NAN for example, only FJ flights with QF codes.

I put a $25 'fully refundable' hold on a $14K flight to LHR yesterday, then immediately got pissed off after paying it when the next thing that popped up was 'your hold is not refundable if you cancel the booking' (um, so not fully refundable then at all? Misleading and deceptive much? Lucky it's only $25 and I can't be bothered) and worse when I as WP tried to ring QF to ask a simple question about the booking I was on hold for 15 minutes and then got cut off. So if a WP wanting to pay $14K for a fare can't get through to the call centre then that is frankly pathetic and not the kind of service that makes me prepared to continue to pay the kind of fares that QF wants. SQ is $13K and that's for getting to the European destinations I actually want to go to, not being locked into LHR cos that's the closest the airline flies.

So basically this hamster doesn't feel like running just because QF has spun the DSC wheel.

 

[henrus]

I can't find a QF-metal flight to NAN for example, only FJ flights with QF codes.

QF flies their own 737 to NAN from SYD on Sun, Tue, Fri and Sat.

Thing is they often don't appear because FJ operated QF coded are cheaper, for example a random May week it's $782 in Y return but $1025 on QF. Things are worse in J when FJ is ~$2500 return for an A350 operated service whereas QF is ~$3600 for the same route but on a 737.

put a $25 'fully refundable' hold on a $14K flight to LHR yesterday, then immediately got pissed off after paying it when the next thing that popped up was 'your hold is not refundable if you cancel the booking'

Most airlines (for example SQ, UA, NZ) charge a similar fee and most don't refund it. Qantas (and EK) at least count your paid $25 towards your booking if you follow through with it.

Mind you I find QF a lot more flexible then other airlines and this regard. The ability to now cancel a booking free of charge up to 24 hours after it was made it great, plus I've found that if you type in all your details and get to the payment page, QF will often hold that booking for free and send an email saying you have until midnight to ticket it (although I don't know if that also lock the price in).

 

[justinbrett]

With this offer being so restrictive it's really brought home to me how QF isn't a true international airline, just an Asia-Pacific one with a couple of token European destinations. And even within Asia Pacific it's hard to find a flight that fits this offer - I can't find a QF-metal flight to NAN for example, only FJ flights with QF codes.

I put a $25 'fully refundable' hold on a $14K flight to LHR yesterday, then immediately got pissed off after paying it when the next thing that popped up was 'your hold is not refundable if you cancel the booking' (um, so not fully refundable then at all? Misleading and deceptive much? Lucky it's only $25 and I can't be bothered) and worse when I as WP tried to ring QF to ask a simple question about the booking I was on hold for 15 minutes and then got cut off. So if a WP wanting to pay $14K for a fare can't get through to the call centre then that is frankly pathetic and not the kind of service that makes me prepared to continue to pay the kind of fares that QF wants. SQ is $13K and that's for getting to the European destinations I actually want to go to, not being locked into LHR cos that's the closest the airline flies.

So basically this hamster doesn't feel like running just because QF has spun the DSC wheel.

What, pray tell, is a true international airline?

QF has direct services to every inhabited continent. Not a single European airline flies direct to Australia and only BA offer a one stop service. QF is the market leader by far for Australia - USA services.

AsIan carriers are always going to be able to offer more connections as they’re located in the middle. That’s why the EK alliance exists.

 

[TheInsider]

With this offer being so restrictive it's really brought home to me how QF isn't a true international airline, just an Asia-Pacific one with a couple of token European destinations. And even within Asia Pacific it's hard to find a flight that fits this offer - I can't find a QF-metal flight to NAN for example, only FJ flights with QF codes.

I put a $25 'fully refundable' hold on a $14K flight to LHR yesterday, then immediately got pissed off after paying it when the next thing that popped up was 'your hold is not refundable if you cancel the booking'

 

[Anna]

Yes exactly. It says nothing about active cancellation, it only talks about letting the booking lapse by not paying on time.

 

[justinbrett]

Yes exactly. It says nothing about active cancellation, it only talks about letting the booking lapse by not paying on time.

It says payment must be made in full or otherwise its forfeited.

Presumably if you have a refundable fare, you can pay in full, then cancel.

I'm not seeing the problem here.

 

[Anna]

The problem is that before you pay it says it is 'fully refundable' and alerts you that you can't let it lapse - then as soon as you've paid it another screen pops up and says basically 'gotcha, you can't cancel it now either'. There is a difference between actively cancelling something and letting it lapse. But QF only tells you can't cancel, after they've got your money. If cancelling is the same thing as forfeiting why does QF use different words on different screens? If they were the same they would just use the same words after payment as they used before payment.

 

[justinbrett]

I'm not sure I see the point of a hold fee if you can get it back without booking

 

[RooFlyer]

I'm not sure I see the point of a hold fee if you can get it back without booking

Even it’s described as “refundable” when you have to pay it? What does “refundable” conjure up in your mind?

I can’t see the point of a lot of what Qantas does, but they still do it.

Doesn’t matter on the circumstances. If you pay something which Is described as refundable ( without qualification), it should be refundable.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Even it’s described as “refundable” when you have to pay it? What does “refundable” conjure up in your mind?

I can’t see the point of a lot of what Qantas does, but they still do it.

Doesn’t matter on the circumstances. If you pay something which Is described as refundable ( without qualification), it should be refundable.

But it does qualify as per the screen shot if booking does not go ahead it's forfeited. It's refundable as long as you proceed.

It makes sense to me

 

[justinbrett]

Even it’s described as “refundable” when you have to pay it? What does “refundable” conjure up in your mind?

I can’t see the point of a lot of what Qantas does, but they still do it.

Doesn’t matter on the circumstances. If you pay something which Is described as refundable ( without qualification), it should be refundable.

It clearly says you have to make a booking in full to get it refunded. That information is given before booking, as per the screenshot above.

If you put money on a house, car etc and don’t go through with the sale, you usually lose the money.

 

[PineappleSkip]

I think @Anna is on the money here. Paying for a "fully refundable holding guarantee" is a pretty broad and generous promise and the outs claimed are quite specific. Implication is that unless one of the specific outs apply your $25 is refundable in full. Even if QF manages to impute additional contract terms against the consumer after the event the terms have to be reasonable under ACL

The whole deal as presented by QF seems pretty rank, the only thing that appears to be guaranteed is the PNR. The bit about QF reserving the right to fare adjustments reads to me like the fare paid is the same as if you hadn't paid to "guarantee" anything and were making a fresh booking. That could well be held to be an unfair contract term.

Cheers skip

 

[justinbrett]

I think @Anna is on the money here. Paying for a "fully refundable holding guarantee" is a pretty broad and generous promise

Not when it's directly followed in clear English, on the same page, with

if full payment is not made on time your booking and holding guarantee will be forfeited.

I'm really not getting what is unclear about that. Refundable means it's possible to refund it if you follow the conditions. If you book a refundable flight or hotel, there's still conditions attached to that. In this case, the conditions are clearly laid out in full size print under a heading of "things you need to know". If you chose to ignore that, that's on you - it's not like it's in fine print.

But yes, I don't know why you'd bother - although it would preserve your fare class for the flight, so it stops the fare going up in that regard - it would be pretty unlucky if the fare itself or taxes went up before you booked.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Not when it's directly followed in clear English, on the same page, with

if full payment is not made on time your booking and holding guarantee will be forfeited.

I'm really not getting what is unclear about that. Refundable means it's possible to refund it if you follow the conditions. If you book a refundable flight or hotel, there's still conditions attached to that. In this case, the conditions are clearly laid out in full size print under a heading of "things you need to know". If you chose to ignore that, that's on you - it's not like it's in fine print.

But yes, I don't know why you'd bother - although it would preserve your fare class for the flight, so it stops the fare going up in that regard - it would be pretty unlucky if the fare itself or taxes went up before you booked.

It’s overly complicated to describe the ‘hold fee’ as ‘refundable’, *if* you pay in full.

Most other airlines say the hold fee - or ‘fare lock’ or whatever name they call it - is *subtracted* from the final fare if you go ahead. If you don’t, you lose it.

Making you pay the full fare and then refunding the hold fee seems one step too many.

 

[Cheatah]

It clearly says you have to make a booking in full to get it refunded. That information is given before booking, as per the screenshot above.

If you put money on a house, car etc and don’t go through with the sale, you usually lose the money.

How often do you hear the term "fully refundable" deposit when purchasing a house!

 

[PineappleSkip]

Making you pay the full fare and then refunding the hold fee seems one step too many.

It looked to the cynic in me like QF are seeking to sever the “holding guarantee” from the contract of carriage itself so that if something like the unilateral right to vary the fare were found to be an unfair, the unfair contract is the $25 for the option to purchase, rather than the airfare itself.

 

[Guvner]

Not when it's directly followed in clear English, on the same page, with

if full payment is not made on time your booking and holding guarantee will be forfeited.

I'm really not getting what is unclear about that. Refundable means it's possible to refund it if you follow the conditions. If you book a refundable flight or hotel, there's still conditions attached to that. In this case, the conditions are clearly laid out in full size print under a heading of "things you need to know". If you chose to ignore that, that's on you - it's not like it's in fine print.

But yes, I don't know why you'd bother - although it would preserve your fare class for the flight, so it stops the fare going up in that regard - it would be pretty unlucky if the fare itself or taxes went up before you booked.

What does “fully refundable” mean in the context of “it’s possible to refund if..”? They are not the same thing.

 

[bussyboy]

I'd be more concerned with the "total ticket value may change when you pay in full"

Can't really see the point of this exercise at all!

 

[ANstar]

What, pray tell, is a true international airline?

QF has direct services to every inhabited continent. Not a single European airline flies direct to Australia and only BA offer a one stop service. QF is the market leader by far for Australia - USA services.

AsIan carriers are always going to be able to offer more connections as they’re located in the middle. That’s why the EK alliance exists.

Whilst I don't disagree QF are the current market leader... are they really that far ahead of UA? Maybe when JFK/SFO come back yes..

MEL/SYD/BNE to LAX
MEL/SYD to DFW

UA offer
MEL/SYD/BNE to SFO
SYD-LAX
Seasonal SYD-IAH

 

[AIRwin]

UA offer
MEL/SYD/BNE to SFO
SYD-LAX
Seasonal SYD-IAH

And MEL-LAX