Qantas Block Partner Earn on Competitor Routes

[jase05]

I’ve tried following this thread but it goes around in circles so can someone lay it out in simple terms as to who will be affected and how. Happy for some examples to be provided as reference

 

[justinbrett]

So, if a flyer is a PC member and not a QFF member, how can "this clause" of the QFF T&Cs affect (not effect - those semantics again! ) them? More Alice in Wonderland stuff.

Which was exactly my point. Are you suggesting that QR PC members who are not QFF members can earn points on QF domestic? They can't.

You're hung up on this being in the QFF T&Cs, we've been over that, it's weird, it probably has no legal standing. I'm not defending the T&Cs. I never have. But as QR have replicated on their site (with a minor difference), we can see the information is correct and applies to all QR PC members.

Finally, riddle me this: If QR chooses to allow me (a QFF and PC member) to earn on that Qantas flight, irrespective of whether Qantas pays for the Avios or not (given the QR CEO's attitude to Qantas, its not impossible ) , how does the clause in question operate?

If you're making the point that QR will step in and gift you the points in lieu (and it would be a gift, because you're not entitled to them according to both QR & QF), that's something completely different - and it's not going to happen.

It says I will not earn. And yet I will.

You won't earn points flying QF domestic if crediting to QR PC. Even QR have confirmed this on their site. Not sure why you keep arguing about it.

 

[RooFlyer]

Which was exactly my point. Are you suggesting that QR PC members who are not QFF members can earn points on QF domestic? They can't.

(Sigh). I'm merely posed a question illustrating what I thought was the silliness of what you wrote earlier. My bolding of what you wrote which implies that the clause can apply to PC members who are not also QFF members:

But the effect of this clause only effects PC members, and dual PC & QFF members, it does not effect QFF members who are also not PC members. Therefore, the clause only effects PC members.

If a flyer isn't a member of QFF, the QFF T&Cs don't apply to them. (EDIT: Exception - if the PC T&Cs directly refer to or quote/import the QFF terms.)

If you're making the point that QR will step in and gift you the points in lieu (and it would be a gift, because you're not entitled to them according to both QR & QF), that's something completely different - and it's not going to happen.

No kidding; you may have noticed "given the QR CEO's attitude to Qantas, its not impossible " bit, indicating that it was a bit of a lighthearted contribution. Chill out.

I see you have continued to use "receiving/awarded" etc throughout this debate, studiously ignoring the actual wording in the clause - "earn". There is a difference between earning and receiving/being awarded which you simply can't seem to grasp - for instance, earning a wage is different from receiving/being paid it. Consider this, please: It is not impossible that an airline in a similar position to the situation being discussed may have T&Cs with "earning tables" (without specific carve-outs) so that its loyalty currency is earned on the type of flight being discussed here, but then have another point which says along the lines of " ... notwithstanding the earn table, loyalty currency will not be awarded (lists cases) ...". Surely you can see this? Earn Vs receive/award. QFF T&Cs cannot prevent earn on another airline's FF program, but it can do everything it can to prevent things being awarded, such as not paying for the currency.

I had 10 years in investment banks M&A departments and I can assure you words matter in contracts, even when they are not what was intended. Its what the judge is going to work with.

 

[serfty]

[moderator hat]

Some recent discussion in this thread is getting tedious with little new being added. Please refrain from continuing this.​

[moderator hat]

 

[serfty]

I’ve tried following this thread but it goes around in circles so can someone lay it out in simple terms as to who will be affected and how. Happy for some examples to be provided as reference

Analysing the terms that existed for Qatar alongside the additional clause added to the Qantas terms it appears that for Qantas Domestic Marketed Flights:

The QR rule restricts earn unless the ticket¥ also contains travel on an international flight marketed by either QF or QR.

The QF rule further restricts earn on routes that are also operated by Virgin Australia§ to Qantas (081-) ticketed international bookings.

¥ or a Conjunction Ticket

§ Virgin Australia being the only Domestic carrier where frequent flyer earn can be credited to a Qantas Partner Group Airline Frequent Flyer program (QR SC).

 

[justinbrett]

Analysing the terms that existed for Qatar alongside the additional clause added to the Qantas terms it appears that for Qantas Domestic Marketed Flights:

The QR rule restricts earn unless the ticket¥ also contains travel on an international flight marketed by either QF or QR.

The QF rule further restricts earn on routes that are also operated by Virgin Australia§ to Qantas (081-) ticketed international bookings.

¥ or a Conjunction Ticket

§ Virgin Australia being the only Domestic carrier where frequent flyer earn can be credited to a Qantas Partner Group Airline Frequent Flyer program (QR SC).

The wording was "Qantas marketed international itinerary". Does it say somewhere that's specifically -81 tickets? Could it mean bookings made with QF directly? Would a ticket from a TA count?

As far as I'm aware, QF revenue won't book you on QR, QR revenue won't book you on QF domestic (they will for TT). QF has to be an award booking to book on QR (and I assume the same for the reverse). But then if it's an award booking crediting to QR PC, you couldn't get points or loyalty (unless QR has a Points Club equivalent I'm not aware of)

I tried to blend a QF & QR booking through Expedia multi city, and it was having none of it. Is it even possible?

So in what situation would the QF exemption actually apply? The QR wording sounds more reasonable.

 

[kpro]

I can get Qatar's website and American Express Travel to price me a revenue itinerary with a QF Dom to QR Int routing, and vice versa.

Haven't had much luck on the Qantas site though, so doesn't answer as to when the QF marketed exemption would apply.

 

[kpro]

Is it intended to stop double dipping or picking and choosing between the QF and VA loyalty programs and awarding of points if you take (for example) an international QR flight into Australia and then a domestic leg with VA (marketed by QR under a QR ticket) on a domestic route that QF also fly?

I think what this is intended to do is prevent people who are primarily flying intra-Australia, joining the Qatar Privilege Club programme and then having the best of both worlds. IE earn/burn points flying a mix of VA and QF, gaining elite status on both airlines and then availing lounge access with both airlines.

This dissuades people from going down this route by removing a key benefit.

 

[RooFlyer]

I tried to blend a QF & QR booking through Expedia multi city, and it was having none of it. Is it even possible?

Not sure what meant by 'blend' but my TA produced a revenue itinerary with QF HBA-MEL-ADL connecting to QR ADL-DOH and onwards; since flown. Same PNR, on QR ticket (157-).

I had the QF legs crediting to QFF .

 

[justinbrett]

Not sure what meant by 'blend' but my TA produced a revenue itinerary with QF HBA-MEL-ADL connecting to QR ADL-DOH and onwards; since flown. Same PNR, on QR ticket (157-).

I had the QF legs crediting to QFF .

Yes, that's what I meant.

But I don't think you can do it in reverse (a QF -81 ticket). Hence my question.

 

[RooFlyer]

But I don't think you can do it in reverse (a QF -81 ticket). Hence my question.

I'll ask my TA.

 

[RooFlyer]

But I don't think you can do it in reverse (a QF -81 ticket). Hence my question.

TA says correct. Can't ticket QR on a QF ticket. By using a TA I'm oblivious to all this sort of stuff. It just happens

 

[ANstar]

Well in theory QR could buy 100% of VA and do what they like. Would be interesting if they did.

 

[serfty]

The wording was "Qantas marketed international itinerary". Does it say somewhere that's specifically -81 tickets? Could it mean bookings made with QF directly? Would a ticket from a TA count?

The only thing I can relate "Qantas Marketed Itinerary" to is an 081- ticket.

 

[justinbrett]

The only thing I can relate "Qantas Marketed Itinerary" to is an 081- ticket.

And since we're pretty sure you can't book a QR flight on a QF ticket, what is the point of the clause?

 

[serfty]

And since we're pretty sure you can't book a QR flight on a QF ticket, what is the point of the clause?

Can you mix QR flights with QF flights on a BA ticket?

What about xONEx?

 

[Vic]

Unless I’m missing something domestic flights in Australia have never been eligible to earn on QR unless part of an International itinerary.

Huh? Oneworld allows earn on domestic qantas flights, at least for AA and BA in my experience. Was there some exclusion for QR before this new rule came in?

 

[jase05]

Huh? Oneworld allows earn on domestic qantas flights, at least for AA and BA in my experience. Was there some exclusion for QR before this new rule came in?

Yes.
When I first got the status match to QRPC as a Platinum I was looking to se whether I could maintain Platinum by crediting QF domestic flights to it and the terms and conditions on QR’s website and it was stated as such

“Accrual on Qantas domestic flights are only eligible when they are in conjunction with an international flight marketed by either Qantas or Qatar Airways on the same ticket”

To the best of my knowledge QR has never allowed you to earn on domestic Australian flights

As I couldn’t earn for domestic flights I decided to instead sign up with BAEC and credit all my domestic QF flights to them

 

[Vic]

Yes.
When I first got the status match to QRPC as a Platinum I was looking to se whether I could maintain Platinum by crediting QF domestic flights to it and the terms and conditions on QR’s website and it was stated as such

“Accrual on Qantas domestic flights are only eligible when they are in conjunction with an international flight marketed by either Qantas or Qatar Airways on the same ticket”

To the best of my knowledge QR has never allowed you to earn on domestic Australian flights

As I couldn’t earn for domestic flights I decided to instead sign up with BAEC and credit all my domestic QF flights to them

So the confusing part of this thread then is all those people quoting the "QR version" of the new Qantas condition. Whereas it appears this was always a restriction. And perhaps qantas are just catching up?

What if this change has come at the behest of QR rather than QF? What if it's QR basically saying - we've gotten into bed with VA so if you want to earn for flights in Oz, do it on VA? There's possibly an assumption here that this is a QF driven reaction to this.. but it may not be. I've no proof either way, but seems to me given the above comments that it could be QR pushing this to direct pax to VA. A bit like the reverse of the restrictions (coughpy) SC earn on MH on kangaroo route flights (and now KUL-DOH too which has a suspicious common element...).

Again, don't know.. but possibly a thought.

Which lends a bit of support to the suggestion by @RichardMEL above that maybe this is happening at QR’s behest. That is one way to guarantee that QR will not award Avios- if QR has made the decision. But then it is really weird that it is in QF’s FF T&C. If it is a decision by QR, then you’d think it would just be a notice by Qantas or an amendment to the points and SC earning tables.

Yeah, I'm not really getting that logic.
QR: "Qantas, old chap, I want to force my loyalty customers to fly with your competitor, would you be a brick and add something to your T&Cs so my loyalty customers blame you and not me"
QF: "yep I'll get right on that"

Sorry I can't see that...

BTW when I buy booze Woolies give me woolies points, not qantas points... Just saying

 

[Princess Fiona]

TA says correct. Can't ticket QR on a QF ticket. By using a TA I'm oblivious to all this sort of stuff. It just happens

I have QR flights on a QF ticket ?
My TA has booked this for me.