Qantas Boeing 787-9 premium economy seat

[TomVexille]

PE still 7" better than Y

6" on the 789, but neither is really good enough IMO

 

[juddles]

I think the "revolutionary" hype is standard in any industry / product market.

As for the desires for "angled lie-flat" and such, I think that is completely unreal. I am perhaps a perfect reason why that should not happen - I do heaps of long-haul travel every year, it hurts me financially to do so in J, but I do it in J to make it humanly bearable. If there was a PE product that was sufficiently good I would ditch all those J purchases immediately.

And I also think that if you compare historic prices, those PE seats cost what economy used to just a few years ago - and this PE (especially with QF's service) is heaps better than historic Y.

 

[TomVexille]

I think the "revolutionary" hype is standard in any industry / product market.

As for the desires for "angled lie-flat" and such, I think that is completely unreal. I am perhaps a perfect reason why that should not happen - I do heaps of long-haul travel every year, it hurts me financially to do so in J, but I do it in J to make it humanly bearable. If there was a PE product that was sufficiently good I would ditch all those J purchases immediately.

And I also think that if you compare historic prices, those PE seats cost what economy used to just a few years ago - and this PE (especially with QF's service) is heaps better than historic Y.

You're entirely correct that making it too good would cannibalize their J market. But an extra 3-5 inches across 3 rows (I'm guessing the front row has sufficient kneeroom) would have made this the class leader. As it stands QF often charge close to double the Y price for ~30% more space. The entire product isn't worth double what Y is.

 

[juddles]

.... The entire product isn't worth double what Y is....

That is subjective, and the fact that most airlines now devote so much space - collectively - not to individual seats - to PE is because people DO find it worth it and pay what the price is.

 

[TomVexille]

That is subjective, and the fact that most airlines now devote so much space - collectively - not to individual seats - to PE is because people DO find it worth it and pay what the price is.

That's the thing, they don't actually devote that much space. Well, at least QF don't...

 

[downgraded]

Scary isn't it - so much negativity created for the want of 12 inches of legroom.

 

[TomVexille]

Scary isn't it - so much negativity created for the want of 12 inches of legroom.

And I'm sure they could have found it if they wanted to

 

[downgraded]

That is subjective, and the fact that most airlines now devote so much space - collectively - not to individual seats - to PE is because people DO find it worth it and pay what the price is.

But do people think it is worth paying for? To LHR it's been 30-50% vacant seats on QF PE.

 

[TomVexille]

But do people think it is worth paying for? To LHR it's been 30-50% vacant seats on QF PE.

I think if it sold better airlines would install more of the seats

 

[downgraded]

I think if it sold better airlines would install more of the seats

If they weren't advertising it at up to 6700 and often >5000 they might build some interest and sell more of it!

 

[mviy]

Exactly. They may call it Premium Economy but it is often priced as Business Minus. It really should be priced as half or less than business not ~ three quarters of the price.

 

[lathiat]

Looks pretty revolutionary to me, that kick up to cradle you when sleeping looks like exactly what I'd like.
I am keen to try this out on my next long haul, super especially if it's PER-LHR

The price sometimes really sucks though, should absolutely not be more than double economy in my view.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think the "revolutionary" hype is standard in any industry / product market.

As for the desires for "angled lie-flat" and such, I think that is completely unreal. I am perhaps a perfect reason why that should not happen - I do heaps of long-haul travel every year, it hurts me financially to do so in J, but I do it in J to make it humanly bearable. If there was a PE product that was sufficiently good I would ditch all those J purchases immediately.

And I also think that if you compare historic prices, those PE seats cost what economy used to just a few years ago - and this PE (especially with QF's service) is heaps better than historic Y.

angled lie flat is exactly the real estate QF's premium economy fares should entitle the buyer to. And it's not unrealistic... business class developed over time, PE hasn't. It wouldn't cannibalise the business market because business passengers want full flat. If they were happy with angled lie flats we'd still have them. But save for a few planes with a couple of airlines, they've largely gone.

PE seats to London are $5000... I can't recall economy class on qantas for that price. Maybe 2500-3000 in peak season over Christmas, but not $5000.

 

[mviy]

I was on a flight in J on a non-refurbished 747 last year. A passenger seated nearby was quite upset to have an angled flat seat not the lie flat seat they expected and felt they had paid for. About four days before the flight the seat map changed from refurbished to non-refurbished.

angled flat would be a revolutionary improvement for PE passengers whilst not good enough for business class passengers.

 

[suze2000]

8 abreast 60 inch pitch with angled lie-flats.....As for the 'cradle' seat - that harks back to the days of BA's business class in 1996.

<snipped for length>

Wow I must be the a minority who would prefer a cradle seat (with decent leg room - not this!) to an angled lie-flat. Have tried them many times and there is no way to get comfy for a back sleeper. And you always end up slid down to the feet of the thing. How do people get comfy in those things?

(mind you, I tried a lot of different "flat" beds on my last trip, none of them properly flat, with no lumps, bumps or hard bits. I usually end up with it partially reclined and a pillow under my knees or some such, which brings very little sleep anyway)

I look at that seat and think "not bad, but too claustrophobic". I'm trying to figure out how a person will get out from the window with the seat in front reclined, and I don't understand why anyone would want a calf support that puts all the strain on their lower back instead of a footrest which will support the weight of their legs. Maybe it's just me, I don't "get" QF's A380 foot hammocks either.

 

[serfty]

Nostalgia ... I had very little issue sleeping in the old Qantas "Dreamtime" seats ...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

<snipped for length>

Wow I must be the a minority who would prefer a cradle seat (with decent leg room - not this!) to an angled lie-flat. Have tried them many times and there is no way to get comfy for a back sleeper. And you always end up slid down to the feet of the thing. How do people get comfy in those things?

I agree. Angled lie-flats are generally pretty uncomfortable. But they would be 'revolutionary'.

At three or more times the economy fare, imagine what airlines could do with the total footprint of three economy seats... the Air New Zealand skycouch is one example - and that only costs 2.5 times the base economy fare. A flat surface for sleeping and a perfect example where business class can easily exist alongside full-flat sleeping surfaces in economy.

 

[juddles]

.... It wouldn't cannibalise the business market because business passengers want full flat.....

I disagree. Everyone "wants full flat", not just "business passengers - but we all make choices that fundamentally involve two factors - comfort and price. If i could get an angle flat seat for half the cost of a lay flat, I would be dropping down from J to PE.

I was unaware though that it costs $5000 to get to LHR in PE - that does seem a tad harsh. But I assume that is a normal (non-sale) fare? As a general rule I feel that the three classes should be roughly priced where each step up costs twice the previous - ie say Y $2000, PE $4000, and J $8000

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I disagree. Everyone "wants full flat", not just "business passengers - but we all make choices that fundamentally involve two factors - comfort and price. If i could get an angle flat seat for half the cost of a lay flat, I would be dropping down from J to PE.

I was unaware though that it costs $5000 to get to LHR in PE - that does seem a tad harsh. But I assume that is a normal (non-sale) fare? As a general rule I feel that the three classes should be roughly priced where each step up costs twice the previous - ie say Y $2000, PE $4000, and J $8000

Qantas charges more than $5000 at times for PE to London. Business class on 2nd tier airlines can be cheaper.

$2000 for economy is on the high side now, even for QF.

As as I mentioned in my post above (you might not have got to it yet), Air New Zealand already offers full flat in economy and still have a PEY product and business class. A single passenger can buy the entire skycouch, slightly more expensive than a single PEY seat, but well below business class.

QF could have introduced a skycouch experience well within the price point for current PE and still make a profit. The current fares don't reflect reality (in terms of cabin real estate you are buying for your $$). it's max profit for QF with little or no outlay, and continued cutting of amenities in that cabin.

have you considered a skycouch on NZ services... half the price of qantas business class and full flat.

 

[moa999]

My view is look at the floorspace - which is ultimately the constraining factor in the aircraft

From various sites
PE - 38" pitch v 20.5" width
Y - 32" pitch v 17.2" width
Equals 1.415x (41.5℅ more) floorspace (numbers may not be identical measurements but I expect it's +/- 10℅ on this)
Add better food, higher staffing ratio etc.

Maybe a 50℅ premium in Y is appropriate, but not double.

And to compare to Business (using the old SkyBed II due to the overlaps in the Suite - it's listed as 80" by 24" but I'm going to call it 26" due to the much larger armrests - and I think space wise the Business Suite is about the same)

Business - 80” x 26"
Equals 3.78x the floorspace of Y
Equals 2.67x the floorspace of PE
So you can easily see that charging 3.5-4x the price of Economy for Business is simply reflecting the space used