Qantas Delays/Cancellations

[Quickstatus]

It's thanks to you Melburnian1 for your tireless and continuing efforts in bringing an terrific insight into this aspect of travel.

While many like myself focus on one or two, I'm amazed that you can keep contribution on more than a daily basis to so many D&T threads. How do you find the time?. Its easy to just say "QF9 is late" but your contributions often have an insightfully detailed "bigger picture" narrative.

BTW the QFD&T thread is probably within the top 10 in terms of views and certainly one of the best threads for keeping on topic.

Well done!

 

[Pushka]

Agree Quickstatus. Thanks to you Melburnian.

 

[Melburnian1]

On Thursday 5 May, the longhaul QF7 ex SYD is expected to depart at 1500 hours rather than 1300 for its trip to DFW.

 

[katiebell]

Other discussions such as the at times appalling punctuality of the QF B717 flights between MEL and HBA are examples where QF has a subcontractor providing flights yet there is often no easy access to a spare aircraft should the rostered plane encounter problems. It may not be financially realistic to expect a 'subbie' to have a spare aircraft sitting on a tarmac 'just in case', but that does little to console delayed passengers with urgent appointments.

QF HBA-SYD & rtn is also appalling. A colleague from HBA now has to fly to SYD the day before and overnight for our 10:00 start meetings. He consistently missed the start of meetings by >1 hour, often much more and he was meant to be chairing the meetings. He now misses an extra half-day of work for every meeting as the time keeping is not fit for every journey.

I agree wholeheartedly that Melburnian1 makes an outstanding contribution to AFF. He deserves LTG (or LTP) from the organisation!

 

[Melburnian1]

The Wednesday 4 May 2016 QF2 departed LHR six minutes early at 2124, arriving DXB on Thursday 5 at 0714, 16 minutes early. However it then spent overtime, not pulling out (or, more correctly, pushing back) until 1211 this afternoon, two hours and 56 minutes late. SYD arrival is predicted on Friday 6 May at 0715 instead of 0510 hours.

 

[milehighclub]

The Wednesday 4 May 2016 QF2 departed LHR six minutes early at 2124, arriving DXB on Thursday 5 at 0714, 16 minutes early. However it then spent overtime, not pulling out (or, more correctly, pushing back) until 1211 this afternoon, two hours and 56 minutes late. SYD arrival is predicted on Friday 6 May at 0715 instead of 0510 hours.

It did push back and even took off but returned to DXB sometime between 30 minutes and an hour after departure.

The 1211 was the second departure.

 

[Melburnian1]

On Friday 6 May, the 0820 SYD down to ABX (QF2205) will depart an an expected 1115. Arrival should be at 1230 instead of 0935.

QF1419 and QF1477, respectively the 1130 and 1155 late morning departures from SYD to CBR have both been cancelled. However, QF1519 which oddly is also timed out of SYD at 1155 for CBR remains operating, meaning that instead of four flights between 1045 and 1155 ex SYD for the national capital, QF is down to two.

 

[The Flying Brick]

It did push back and even took off but returned to DXB sometime between 30 minutes and an hour after departure.

The 1211 was the second departure.

QF 2 was initially held at DBX due to favourable winds which would have seen the flight arrive at 4.15am (this flight has a 5.00am exemption from the curfew - but not before that time.

After a 25 minute delay QF 2 took off but 10 minutes into the flight a medical emergency was called over the PA.

The flight was turned around and we landed again at Dubai about 20 mins after take off with a full load of fuel on board.

The extra weight caused the brakes ro overhear and two tyres popped due to the heat. According to the captain the brakes heated up to 800 degrees C.

The medical emergency was upstairs in Business class where a lady had suffered what I understand to be a heart attack.

Most unfortunately she passed away on board.

The delay at Dubai was then until 1211 with all the necessities of paperwork and then more brake issues as the A380 could not take off until the brakes had cooled to 200 degrees. The tyres had been replaced quickly and the upstairs and First airbridges were extended to the plane.

Several engineers had large fans set up attempting to cool the brakes down and in the end this was the cause of the extended delay.

The QF crew were fantastic and their support of the bereaved family who were travelling with the lady was so professional and caring.

The captain kept the passengers up to date with news of what was happening and as sad as event like this is it made me really glad that I was flying on Qantas.

The experience of landing in a fully loaded A380 was a first for me and it it just felt so heavy on touchdown and then the long breaking on the runway.

 

[Melburnian1]

milehighclub and The Flying Brick, many thanks for these excellent updates. Having someone die on board must be very difficult for all concerned because of the constrained space and the pressure on fellow travellers who are family members. QF2 ended up pulling up on blocks at the SYD gate at 0716 this morning (Friday 6 May.)

Sadly with Australia's population ageing, notwithstanding typical longer life expectancies, we are likely to gradually see more passengers suffering coronary episodes on board long distance flights. The rate may still be low per million passengers carried, though. One good thing is that with say 400 passengers on board, there will almost always be trained medical personnel travelling so unlike at one's home or in quieter streets if one is out walking or driving, expert help is virtually immediately available.

Just to clarify The Flying Brick, you mean 'DXB' instead of 'DBX' above.

QF2 is one of if I recall three major flights that during the northern summer timetable (six months of the year) have permission to land at SYD between 0500 and 0600, the latter being when the normal 2300 hours to 0600 hours curfew lifts. Some users of AFF may not realise that for many years the SYD curfew has contained these small (though perhaps at time annoying to local residents under the flight paths) exemptions. Other exemptions include freighter flights and as one would expect ambulance and the like flights.

This afternoon (6 May) QF644 (1240 MEL to BNE) is cancelled as is its opposite direction number, QF643, the 0930 from BNE down to MEL.

QF610, the 0910 hours MEL to BNE departed at 0948 with arrival likely at 1155, 35 minutes late.

 

[The Flying Brick]

My iPhone spell checker doesn't like 'DXB' - very annoying!

One of the reasons the brakes took so long to cool was the ambient temperature - it was 34 degrees when we landed.
The cabin was getting pretty warm by midday and I was in the comfy seats, not those down the back.

BTW - Skycam was pretty handy to keep an eye on various activities on the ground - a couple of fire engines on the way in and the cooling fans.

Also on landing at SYD a Quarantine official boarded and ordered the door closed whist he investigated a report of an ill child upstairs in business.
Never seen that happen before!
The kid was not infectious and we were allowed to alight from QF2 after a delay of 5 minutes.

 

[Melburnian1]

While QF11 departed SYD 49 minutes late at 1039 on Friday 6 May, it remains expected to arrive LAX on time at 0630 same day. This is an important lesson to not always 'panic' if one has a tight connection at the destination: many airline schedules are padded, and winds may be more favourable than the average, while the time from pushback to takeoff can also vary markedly.

 

[Quickstatus]

Additionally there would be inspections of the aircraft to ensure that it would be airworthy - maybe this contributed to the necessary time on ground (I'd hate to call it a delay in the situation). JB747 said that an aircraft such as the double decker can land at any weight up to max if required like this one. Apparently max landing weight could often be only reached in the last 2 hours of a long flight so no matter how many hours race tracking in the air dumping fuel the plane would be overweight.

Sounds like the flightcrew landed the hugely overweight aircraft properly as it was able to take off soon after.

In these situations most will be very happy for the airline to take all till the time it needed so not a delay with the usual connotation.

 

[Melburnian1]

The captain kept the passengers up to date with news of what was happening and as sad as event like this is it made me really glad that I was flying on Qantas.

The Flying Brick, in these sad circumstances, taking the deceased off the plane and allowing her family to leave - as they would need to - and collect their luggage from the hold would take some time. Courtesy and etiquette would dictate that they were first priority, not other passengers. After that, however, with the brakes requiring cooling, there would still be a further period before you were able to safely depart.

Was it impractical in the circumstances to offload you all and at least have you wait in the cooler surroundings of a transit lounge at DXB airport because of perceived lack of time - alighting and boarding takes time? I'm a bit surprised that you had to sit on a hot aircraft. Couldn't they have hooked up an auxillary power unit?

It also strikes me that with a two hour delay into SYD you really weren't that far off having the flight from DXB to SYD cancelled because the crew would run out of permissible hours, which from memory one esteemed contributor told us was normally '18' but can be extended to '20' if parties agree, the latter a very long shift. The official flying time from DXB to SYD is about 13 hours 50 minutes but the crew have pre and post flight duties as well. Still, you arrived at your destination safely: I agree with Flightstatus that a delay in such circumstances is completely unavoidable so it is a different category from ones caused by, say, poor maintenance.

Thursday 5 May's QF10 ex LHR departed LHR a minute late at 1306, arriving DXB 24 early at 2256. However it did not depart until 0315 hours on Friday 6 May in lieu of the timetabled 0135, but is picking up time en route to MEL where QF suggests it will arrive an hour late at 2155 this evening. The returning QF9 (2255 hours to DXB and LHR) is forecast to depart at 2345 hours, 50 minutes late but based on past performance could still be on time or even early into LHR if all goes well.

 

[jb747]

QF 2 was initially held at DBX due to favourable winds which would have seen the flight arrive at 4.15am (this flight has a 5.00am exemption from the curfew - but not before that time.

After a 25 minute delay QF 2 took off but 10 minutes into the flight a medical emergency was called over the PA.

The flight was turned around and we landed again at Dubai about 20 mins after take off with a full load of fuel on board.

Be interesting to know what the exact airborne time was. 20 minutes (or even near) is a hell of an effort to set up a return, and overweight landing.

The extra weight caused the brakes ro overhear and two tyres popped due to the heat. According to the captain the brakes heated up to 800 degrees C.

Extra weight, and extra speed. Approach numbers would have been quite a bit faster.

The delay at Dubai was then until 1211 with all the necessities of paperwork and then more brake issues as the A380 could not take off until the brakes had cooled to 200 degrees. The tyres had been replaced quickly and the upstairs and First airbridges were extended to the plane.

Brake temperature is an issue that you have to keep a very close eye on. The 200º limit exists to help you keep away from the 300º take off limit. The last thing you want is something that's red hot inside the wheel bays. If the temperature exceeds 700º the wheels have to be removed from the brakes to allow them to be inspected too, though if the tyres deflated then that happens anyway.

Several engineers had large fans set up attempting to cool the brakes down and in the end this was the cause of the extended delay.

They're always in use in Dubai. When we first talk to them on parking we always give them an idea of which brakes are hottest, so that they can get the fans in use straight away. Sometimes they'll use conditioned air too, but I think there might be thermal issues if the brakes are very hot.

The experience of landing in a fully loaded A380 was a first for me and it it just felt so heavy on touchdown and then the long breaking on the runway.

The runway starts to flash by....and you have to resist the temptation to get on the brakes too heavily.

 

[Melburnian1]

On Friday 6 May QF2018 from SYD to WTB is delayed in its departure from 1655 to an estimated 1745 hours while QF451, the 1715 SYD down to MEL has got the flick.

QF1494 (1735 hours SYD - CBR) should depart at 1810.

 

[jb747]

The Flying Brick, in these sad circumstances, taking the deceased off the plane and allowing her family to leave - as they would need to - and collect their luggage from the hold would take some time. Courtesy and etiquette would dictate that they were first priority, not other passengers. After that, however, with the brakes requiring cooling, there would still be a further period before you were able to safely depart.

Firstly it can take quite some time before the authorities will allow any passengers off the aircraft. Last time I had someone die on board, it was over two hours before anyone was allowed off (Singapore, but HK was almost the same). It immediately becomes a police matter, and they take whatever time they take.

Was it impractical in the circumstances to offload you all and at least have you wait in the cooler surroundings of a transit lounge at DXB airport because of perceived lack of time - alighting and boarding takes time? I'm a bit surprised that you had to sit on a hot aircraft. Couldn't they have hooked up an auxillary power unit?

I don't know why you're saying it was a hot aircraft. The packs would have been running. They can get hot on ground air, but if the packs are up the temp shouldn't have been an issue. As explained, the APU is part of the aircraft, and would most certainly have been running.

If you do allow disembarkation, it will need the approval of the local authorities. Everyone will have to get off, and you'll need to have security go over the aircraft cabin again before boarding. Plus the pax will have to go back through security again. The whole exercise would have almost certainly taken much longer.

It also strikes me that with a two hour delay into SYD you really weren't that far off having the flight from DXB to SYD cancelled because the crew would run out of permissible hours, which from memory one esteemed contributor told us was normally '18' but can be extended to '20' if parties agree, the latter a very long shift. The official flying time from DXB to SYD is about 13 hours 50 minutes but the crew have pre and post flight duties as well.

There are other possible solutions if hours start to become a big issue. The obvious one is another crew in Dubai, but that isn't the only answer.

 

[Melburnian1]

I don't know why you're saying it was a hot aircraft. The packs would have been running. They can get hot on ground air, but if the packs are up the temp shouldn't have been an issue. As explained, the APU is part of the aircraft, and would most certainly have been running....The obvious one is another crew in Dubai, but that isn't the only answer.

I was saying that it was 'hot' because in my experience sitting in aircraft prior to departure in a tropical or other country with a ground temperature in the mid 30s I have always been warm at the very least...the sun beating in through the windows and so on. If that's incorrect, I bow to your experience but so often I've heard tech crew say 'it'll be cooler inside the cabin once we are at cruising level...'

Wouldn't using 'another crew in DXB' potentially affect the next flight's (i.e. on which such crew was rostered) punctuality in that the next flight might then only have as available a crew who had been insufficiently rested according to the regulations? I realise it's a juggling act and it may depend on whether each crew has close to minimum rest hours allocated at this intermediate stop, or whether there is a bit of 'generosity' in the 'slip' time so that the operations officers can 'play' with it a bit if there is a need for one crew to 'sub' for another. Simply out of interest, what other solutions are there - voluntary excess time on duty, or transferring passengers to EK flights direct to (in this case) SYD, or via BKK, KUL or even MEL? (Many thanks - I'm also conscious that this thread is meant to be about tech crew operations generally, not QF-specific questions.)

 

[jb747]

I was saying that it was 'hot' because in my experience sitting in aircraft prior to departure in a tropical or other country with a ground temperature in the mid 30s I have always been warm at the very least...the sun beating in through the windows and so on. If that's incorrect, I bow to your experience but so often I've heard tech crew say 'it'll be cooler inside the cabin once we are at cruising level...'

The aircraft often get hot on the ground because the packs aren't running, and the ground air isn't keeping up. In this case it had been airborne, so whilst it might have been warm, the temperature should have been under control to start with, so the APU/packs should be able to keep it there.

Wouldn't using 'another crew in DXB' potentially affect the next flight's (i.e. on which such crew was rostered) punctuality in that the next flight might then only have as available a crew who had been insufficiently rested according to the regulations? I realise it's a juggling act and it may depend on whether each crew has close to minimum rest hours allocated at this intermediate stop, or whether there is a bit of 'generosity' in the 'slip' time so that the operations officers can 'play' with it a bit if there is a need for one crew to 'sub' for another. Simply out of interest, what other solutions are there - voluntary excess time on duty, or transferring passengers to EK flights direct to (in this case) SYD, or via BKK, KUL or even MEL? (Many thanks - I'm also conscious that this thread is meant to be about tech crew operations generally, not QF-specific questions.)

One reason why many slips are not built to the minimum legal time is to give the schedulers some leeway. In theory they could pull a crew forward (and remember that there are four crews, going in different directions), and then they could be replaced with the ones from the returned aircraft. Such movement often happens for individuals, but a crew makes little difference.

Alternatively, the aircraft will fly over large swathes of Australia. You could drop in to Melbourne or Adelaide, and the company would have had about 12 hours to put people in place. Auckland occasionally serves that way for US/Oz flights.

 

[Himeno]

Wouldn't using 'another crew in DXB' potentially affect the next flight's (i.e. on which such crew was rostered) punctuality in that the next flight might then only have as available a crew who had been insufficiently rested according to the regulations?

Depends if they get a longer slip in DXB then is needed. They might only need 24 hours, but get 48. If DXB-LHR requires less rest between sectors then is needed before the longer DXB-AU, they could swap crews. They could stop a QF9/10 at DXB and catch up the rest periods while transferring pax to other flights instead of operating the DXB-LHR sector.

 

[Melburnian1]

Thank you jb747 and Himeno: illuminating.

The 1830 hours Friday 6 May QF460 (MEL - SYD) has been cancelled while QF462, the same route and direction scheduled 1900 hours flights was expected to depart at 1935.