Qantas Delays/Cancellations

[markis10]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

Let's start with a simple fact. In the '80s and into the '90s, they were lying to you about the flight time.

Yes, there was pretty much zero holding, and yes, it wasn't as congested as it is now, nor did you have to taxi for miles to reach the end of 34R.

But, at the end of the day, the flight times printed by both airlines were figments of the imagination. If one had said they could do it in three minutes, then the other would have scheduled 2....

I agree they were lying, not sure I agree about the holding part, Bindook and Cullerin used to get a workout more often than not when I was on sector 3/4 (SYD/MEL) at YSSY.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

The fact is though that today, the airlines are untruthful in the opposite direction during offpeak times.

On many days, it simply does not take 95 minutes from pushback time in SYD to being at the gate in MEL. Nor does it take 85 minutes in the opposite direction.

Granted, at the busiest times of the day there are many prospective delays to aircraft irrespective of the weather, as too many (or a high number) of planes may be trying to land or takeoff (particularly when SYD is capped at 80 movements an hour).

This argument however does not hold water for the quieter times of the day.

If airlines want to throw away dollars (assuming of course that there is passenger demand to put on the extra flights - this may not be true of every route during the middle of the day, for instance) by having their aircraft do fewer sectors than they arguably could each day, that's up to them. However, passengers want to firstly get safely to their destination, and secondly want to spend as little time as possible doing so if they are time sensitive business passengers, or leisure travellers making a fairly tight connection to or from another flight route or bus or train that may not operate as frequently as the initial (air) sector.

 

[jb747]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

I agree they were lying, not sure I agree about the holding part, Bindook and Cullerin used to get a workout more often than not when I was on sector 3/4 (SYD/MEL) at YSSY.

You're right of course. They were the heydays of holding...

 

[markis10]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

The fact is though that today, the airlines are untruthful in the opposite direction during offpeak times.

On many days, it simply does not take 95 minutes from pushback time in SYD to being at the gate in MEL. Nor does it take 85 minutes in the opposite direction.

I beg to differ, lets look at a real world example at 1130 today, hardly peak:



Sydney (YSSY / SYD)
Terminal 3, Gate 12
Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL)
Terminal 1, Gate 12
11:35AM EST
01:07PM EST


Duration: 1 hour 32 minutes
Thursday, 19 September 2013
Status Arrived over 6 hours ago (track log & graph)
Aircraft Boeing 737-800 (twin-jet) (B738 – photos)
Speed Filed: 441 kts (graph)
Altitude Filed: 38,000 feet (graph)
Distance Direct: 439 sm Planned: 397 sm Flown: 501 sm
Route DCT WOL H65 RAZZI Q29 ML


Maybe I picked a bad example

Sydney (YSSY / SYD)
Terminal 3, Gate 6
Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL)
Terminal 1, Gate 11
11:01AM EST
12:31PM EST
Other flights between these airports
Duration: 1 hour 30 minute


Nope, looks consistent.

During peak the times get out to 120 minutes:

19/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 07:02AM EST 08:30AM EST 1:28
18/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:58AM EST 08:22AM EST 1:24
17/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:57AM EST 08:47AM EST 1:50
16/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 07:00AM EST 08:49AM EST 1:49
15/09/2013 B738 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:56AM EST 08:25AM EST 1:29
14/09/2013 B738 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 07:00AM EST 08:28AM EST 1:28
13/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:57AM EST 08:27AM EST 1:30
12/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 07:02AM EST 08:46AM EST 1:44
11/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:59AM EST 08:32AM EST 1:33
10/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 07:03AM EST 08:37AM EST 1:34
09/09/2013 B763 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:58AM EST 09:02AM EST 2:04
07/09/2013 B738 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:58AM EST 08:28AM EST 1:30
06/09/2013 B738 Sydney (YSSY / SYD) Melbourne Tullamarine (YMML / MEL) 06:58AM EST 08:22AM EST 1:24

 

[nlagalle]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

The fact is though that today, the airlines are untruthful in the opposite direction during offpeak times.

On many days, it simply does not take 95 minutes from pushback time in SYD to being at the gate in MEL. Nor does it take 85 minutes in the opposite direction.

Granted, at the busiest times of the day there are many prospective delays to aircraft irrespective of the weather, as too many (or a high number) of planes may be trying to land or takeoff (particularly when SYD is capped at 80 movements an hour).

This argument however does not hold water for the quieter times of the day.

If airlines want to throw away dollars (assuming of course that there is passenger demand to put on the extra flights - this may not be true of every route during the middle of the day, for instance) by having their aircraft do fewer sectors than they arguably could each day, that's up to them. However, passengers want to firstly get safely to their destination, and secondly want to spend as little time as possible doing so if they are time sensitive business passengers, or leisure travellers making a fairly tight connection to or from another flight route or bus or train that may not operate as frequently as the initial (air) sector.

That's a complete pile of carp! You speak like you have authority on airline movement when in fact you are an armchair wannabe..

I can look back through all my flights and about the best time I've had was around 25 mins early on a MEL-SYD sector. We were lucky with a southerly departure and no holding. And it wasn't in the middle of the day during your so called quieter times.

The fact is the timetables have padding in them for a very good reason. I mean in one breath you are having a go because a flight is late because of X factors yet now you are saying that the timetables are false! Make up your mind. They are put together by far smarter people than you!

And another fact of mine, most of my flights to MEL-SYD are within 10mins of the scheduled time listed. I tend to mix up my times too. Here's another tip, plane flights have far greater external factors affecting times than a train!

 

[jb747]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

The fact is though that today, the airlines are untruthful in the opposite direction during offpeak times.

On many days, it simply does not take 95 minutes from pushback time in SYD to being at the gate in MEL. Nor does it take 85 minutes in the opposite direction.

I've really tried hard to be polite to you, but it's difficult when you make the sort of assertions you do, with absolutely zero knowledge of how to operate an aircraft.

Flight times vary on an hour by hour basis. Schedules are printed in a vague hope of making them happen. They are based on working a set percentage of the time. Great effort is expended in trying to make them happen (that's why jets fly south at low levels..it burns fuel and is expensive, but it's an attempt to keep to what we told you we'd do).

At the back of my mind, in everything in I do, is the knowledge that there are 500 lives, and half a billion dollars, riding on all of my decisions. Whilst the scale is less domestically, people take it no less seriously.

You may think you have some knowledge of aviation, but really, from what we've all read here...you don't.

 

[NM]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

And of course the aircraft have changed a little since the 1980s. Back in the '80s you were likely sitting in a B727, with a max cruise speed Mach 0.9 (~605Mph according to Boeing) and typical cruise speed of Mach 0.82 (~540Mph), while today's 737-800 has a cruise speed more like Mach 0.78 (~511Mph) and a max speed of Mach 0.82 (~540Mph).

Then again, the time difference on a SYD-MEL sector with those cruise speed variation is not going to make for a hugely different sector time. and as the routes become more congested, each aircraft is sometimes limited by the speed of the one in front. But its interesting to note that the 737 is quite a bit slower than the 727.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

How then does one explain the performance of QF430, the 1200 hours flight from MEL to SYD northbound?

Monday 16/9 - 1200 to 1320 - 80 minutes gate to gate - a gain of five minutes on the schedule. Tues. 17/9: 1157 to 1313 - 76 minutes = plus nine minutes. Wed 18/9: 1157-1317 - 80 minutes - plus five again. Today (19/9): 1201/1314 = 73 minutes - plus 12 minutes.

Or international flight JQ30 - 1227 to 1340 - 73 minutes.

Clearly these times are achievable: we have it in print that it has occurred.

All I was suggesting that flight times during the offpeak, when there is a lower chance on average of delays, ought be sped up by 10 minutes on such a sector as MEL - SYD - MEL. If this occurred, they would still be significantly slower than was the case during the 1980s. jb747 claims that the delightful or dreadful duo, depending on one's point of view, were 'lying' at the time: that isn't my memory, but I have not checked my travel records as it is a long time ago.

Extensively read Australian travel journalists have discussed these sorts of matters (excess time allowances on average) occasionally over the years, although they've usually not distinguished between the peak and offpeak times.

I suppose some would say these people 'know nothing', yet they've probably observed aviation and flown extensively for many years.

 

[mannej]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

Melburnian - Ben Sandilands is a journalist. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are experts on the subject.

You have just been told by someone with extensive working experience in the industry, yet you still choose to argue the point, with nothing more than armchair experience.

Sometimes there is a time to wave that white flag...

 

[Brettmcg]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

"Quit while you're (not) ahead."

 

[Mattg]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

How then does one explain the performance of QF430, the 1200 hours flight from MEL to SYD northbound?

Monday 16/9 - 1200 to 1320 - 80 minutes gate to gate - a gain of five minutes on the schedule. Tues. 17/9: 1157 to 1313 - 76 minutes = plus nine minutes. Wed 18/9: 1157-1317 - 80 minutes - plus five again. Today (19/9): 1201/1314 = 73 minutes - plus 12 minutes.

QF430 happened to land on 34L on the days you have selected. It could have easily taken an extra 5 minutes to get to the gate if it happened to land on 34R due to the extra taxi time.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

In the interests of balance, here's an example of a southbound flight that (at least from this sample, which granted is only four days) consistently achieves gate to gate running times under the 95 minute schedule:

QF489, the last of the night: Mon 16/9 SYD 2228/ MEL 2350 - 82 minutes, a gain of 13 minutes; Tu 17/9 2211 to 2329 - 78 minutes, 17 minutes faster than the timetable; Wed 18/9 2203 - 2327 - 84 minutes, a gain of 11; tonight (Th 19/9) a departure and predicted arrival respectively of 2048 - 2210 - 82 minutes if achieved, again a gain of 13 minutes.

Would some now suggest that the QF website is inaccurate? If it was (which I don't believe, because QF boasts that it uses a system called ACARS if I recall), that would call into question QF's entire claims about its punctuality.

No one would ever suggest that peak period (and each major Australian east coast airport has a few of those during the day) flights should be timetabled any quicker in today's increasingly congested peak period domestic Australian airspace (at least not on the SYD - MEL - SYD or SYD - BNE - SYD routes) but on the former route in particular (which does not suffer from the constant limitation of a single runway at BNE), some of the offpeak flights have scope to be sped up by 10 minutes. They would still be far slower in percentage terms than was the case in the 1980s. If some can prove through logbooks that the 1980s timings were never achieved, well and good.

 

[jetlagger]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

How then does one explain the performance of QF430, the 1200 hours flight from MEL to SYD northbound?

Monday 16/9 - 1200 to 1320 - 80 minutes gate to gate - a gain of five minutes on the schedule. Tues. 17/9: 1157 to 1313 - 76 minutes = plus nine minutes. Wed 18/9: 1157-1317 - 80 minutes - plus five again. Today (19/9): 1201/1314 = 73 minutes - plus 12 minutes.

Or international flight JQ30 - 1227 to 1340 - 73 minutes.

Clearly these times are achievable: we have it in print that it has occurred.

All I was suggesting that flight times during the offpeak, when there is a lower chance on average of delays, ought be sped up by 10 minutes on such a sector as MEL - SYD - MEL. If this occurred, they would still be significantly slower than was the case during the 1980s. jb747 claims that the delightful or dreadful duo, depending on one's point of view, were 'lying' at the time: that isn't my memory, but I have not checked my travel records as it is a long time ago.

Extensively read Australian travel journalists have discussed these sorts of matters (excess time allowances on average) occasionally over the years, although they've usually not distinguished between the peak and offpeak times.

I suppose some would say these people 'know nothing', yet they've probably observed aviation and flown extensively for many years.

Whilst I appreciate your posts & we both share similar distinct likeness for destinations..
Sometimes we have to look at the practicalities & well defined professionals that evidently Do have better knowledge & experience than you & I for that matter..
Statistics are always open to interpretation..& so don't ever get to 'wrapped up" in timetabling for a start & also the simplistic of aviation values is that, as you well know can, is, always will be affected by an extensive range of external variances & parameters as well mention & verified.
Sometimes.. It's ok to question the Captain.. But certainly to argue the point towards industry highly esteemed & respected professionals & well qualified experience, surely a recipe for disaster..
Look forward to more positive contributions..
Cheers,
jl

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

mannej, I actually had another journalist in mind apart from Ben Sandilands.

Can you guess who?

 

[Mattg]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

In the interests of balance, here's an example of a southbound flight that (at least from this sample, which granted is only four days) consistently achieves gate to gate running times under the 95 minute schedule:

QF489, the last of the night: Mon 16/9 SYD 2228/ MEL 2350 - 82 minutes, a gain of 13 minutes; Tu 17/9 2211 to 2329 - 78 minutes, 17 minutes faster than the timetable; Wed 18/9 2203 - 2327 - 84 minutes, a gain of 11; tonight (Th 19/9) a departure and predicted arrival respectively of 2048 - 2210 - 82 minutes if achieved, again a gain of 13 minutes.

Would some now suggest that the QF website is inaccurate? If it was (which I don't believe, because QF boasts that it uses a system called ACARS if I recall), that would call into question QF's entire claims about its punctuality.

No one would ever suggest that peak period (and each major Australian east coast airport has a few of those during the day) flights should be timetabled any quicker in today's increasingly congested peak period domestic Australian airspace (at least not on the SYD - MEL - SYD or SYD - BNE - SYD routes) but on the former route in particular (which does not suffer from the constant limitation of a single runway at BNE), some of the offpeak flights have scope to be sped up by 10 minutes.

I don't think anyone has suggested that QF's website gives inaccurate departure/arrival times. I also don't think it has been disputed that it is physically possible to do a MEL-SYD flight in under the scheduled time. But I don't see your point. Just because a flight is early one day won't necessarily mean that it will the next. As has been pointed out numerous times, there are so many external factors with aviation that could affect flight time.

At the end of the day, if a flight happens to run early, what's the problem with that? I don't think anyone would be complaining.

Anyway, in the interests of "balance", QF449 arrived 4 minutes late today. Therefore, should QF extend all SYD-MEL flights by 5 minutes.

 

[mannej]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

mannej, I actually had another journalist in mind apart from Ben Sandilands.

Can you guess who?

I'm not playing a guessing game, more making a point...

 

[nlagalle]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

Melburnian1 do you even know what ACARS is and how it is used???

 

[ecg]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

How then does one explain the performance of QF430, the 1200 hours flight from MEL to SYD northbound?

Monday 16/9 - 1200 to 1320 - 80 minutes gate to gate - a gain of five minutes on the schedule. Tues. 17/9: 1157 to 1313 - 76 minutes = plus nine minutes. Wed 18/9: 1157-1317 - 80 minutes - plus five again. Today (19/9): 1201/1314 = 73 minutes - plus 12 minutes.

Or international flight JQ30 - 1227 to 1340 - 73 minutes.

Clearly these times are achievable: we have it in print that it has occurred.

All I was suggesting that flight times during the offpeak, when there is a lower chance on average of delays, ought be sped up by 10 minutes on such a sector as MEL - SYD - MEL. If this occurred, they would still be significantly slower than was the case during the 1980s. jb747 claims that the delightful or dreadful duo, depending on one's point of view, were 'lying' at the time: that isn't my memory, but I have not checked my travel records as it is a long time ago.

Extensively read Australian travel journalists have discussed these sorts of matters (excess time allowances on average) occasionally over the years, although they've usually not distinguished between the peak and offpeak times.

I suppose some would say these people 'know nothing', yet they've probably observed aviation and flown extensively for many years.

Seriously, is this guy for real??

Maybe you should send your "suggestions" to the airlines because you are such an "expert".

 

[nlagalle]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

In the interests of balance, here's an example of a southbound flight that (at least from this sample, which granted is only four days) consistently achieves gate to gate running times under the 95 minute schedule:

QF489, the last of the night: Mon 16/9 SYD 2228/ MEL 2350 - 82 minutes, a gain of 13 minutes; Tu 17/9 2211 to 2329 - 78 minutes, 17 minutes faster than the timetable; Wed 18/9 2203 - 2327 - 84 minutes, a gain of 11; tonight (Th 19/9) a departure and predicted arrival respectively of 2048 - 2210 - 82 minutes if achieved, again a gain of 13 minutes.

Would some now suggest that the QF website is inaccurate? If it was (which I don't believe, because QF boasts that it uses a system called ACARS if I recall), that would call into question QF's entire claims about its punctuality.

No one would ever suggest that peak period (and each major Australian east coast airport has a few of those during the day) flights should be timetabled any quicker in today's increasingly congested peak period domestic Australian airspace (at least not on the SYD - MEL - SYD or SYD - BNE - SYD routes) but on the former route in particular (which does not suffer from the constant limitation of a single runway at BNE), some of the offpeak flights have scope to be sped up by 10 minutes. They would still be far slower in percentage terms than was the case in the 1980s. If some can prove through logbooks that the 1980s timings were never achieved, well and good.

OK here are some real life experiences if my very regular MEL- SYD sectors in your so called "off Peak":

QF441 - 29/08 departed: 14:30 arrived: 16:05 - 95 minutes
QF443 - 13/08 departed: 15:00 arrived: 16:33 - 93 minutes

Note I was on these flights..

So had the "sped" up the timetabled you would be complaining these flights were "late". As i have already stated, you speak with no knowledge of aviation and the more you post the more you sound the fool here.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

well.. if the times are averaged out I'm glad I took my hit for the team with a 67 minutes SYD-MEL a couple months back (someone's gotta do them right? :mrgreen