Qantas Delays/Cancellations

[Boris spatsky]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

Classic call JB - 'hours in a navigator's logbook'

 

[nlagalle]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

You aren't really comparing apples with apples. The SQ flight is going to Singapore, whilst the QF one is headed off on a very long flight to London. The SQ changes to 322 (I think a different aircraft) in Singapore. The upshot is that the maintenance requirements are quite different, and many MELs may well be allowed on the SQ flight ex Melbourne, but the same document would disallow them on the QF flight. MELs are often location specific.

Over the last month, SQ have indeed done better ex Melbourne, with an average delay of 6 minutes, versus a little under 12 for QF. But, if we remove the worst 2 from QF (and these could well be maintenance issues that SQ would have been able to fly with) (and also do the same for SQ), you end up the perhaps surprising result that the average for both is just under 4 minutes. Looking to the SQ long haul flight out of Singapore, (and removing the two worst) you end up with an average 12 minute delay.

Do you actually understand what the 'departure' time is? Because it isn't the time you depart, and it's quite open to manipulation.....

Delays come up all the time. It makes me very curious if one airline is affected by a delay that another isn't. For instance, if a passenger fails to board, it will always take around 15-30 minutes to offload their luggage. Curiously, some airlines always find that the people who fail to board, also don't have luggage. That may be the case, but you do wonder. Holding patterns remove time in about 6 minute chunks. Pushback clearance...this is only immediately available about 60% of the time, so you may well be held at the gate by ATC from a couple of minutes to 20 or so...this is one easy item to manipulate for the record...but you have no idea if doing so is the norm or rare. Or just not done.

Financial penalties for delays. What a great idea. Not all that safe, but we could all have a lot of fun with it. The passenger who is late to board, could pay all the others. The blokes who are slow to sit down, and so delay closing the doors (the last door won't be closed until everyone is seated), could do the same. If ATC issue us with holding, we could send them a bill.

Fun aside, if there were penalties, the result would be that schedule would override safety. Not might. Would. You may think that aircraft are super safe, and that little happens, so this could be done. I actually know how things work, and things go wrong with all facets of aviation, all the time. The few margins that are left are not to be trifled with.

I've diverted from airports others landed at, and refused to take off in conditions that didn't bother them. Perhaps I'm a wimp, but I think I see examples of what you seem to want quite regularly. It eventually bites.

Don't worry JB I agree 100% with you, my post was a dig at the OP for only showing the delays.

Also you are right with SQ, it is an aircraft swap at SIN.

 

[jb747]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

Classic call JB - 'hours in a navigator's logbook'

I can say that, because I have 1100 of them....

 

[Melburnian1]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

And if someone absolutely, positively, has to be at a meeting in London at 0900 - then they are nothing but foolish (and/or afflicted with DYKWIA syndrome) if they arrange to fly in, from the other side of the world, just a few hours prior.

jb747's latest month comparison of flight punctuality is valid. However my analysis of the situation during a whole year is preferable, because a higher sample size increases the confidence with which any user of the statistics can suggest that it's likely to show a typical result. So we know, for instance, that 52 per cent of the time, QF9 is officially late.

The individual who lives in Horsham (Victoria), whose relative dies at Horsham (UK), who takes a day or so to collect their thoughts, book a flight and arrive at the MEL airport for a funeral scheduled at short notice after QF9 is due to arrive at LHR is hardly a 'do you know who I am' individual. It is most unfair to categorise such a person as 'foolish.' They have no choice (and most would prefer not to be flying in such sad circumstances). If there are 350 passengers on a typical A388 or B744 flight, at least one or two are bound to be travelling for such a sad occasion. Some will be suddenly time sensitive. It is reasonable for them to expect that the airline they book with delivers them to LHR on time or extremely close to it.

Similarly, is a businessman or woman who is on the cusp of signing a multi million dollar employment-generating deal with a UK or German company 'foolish' or afflicted with their own self importance if the UK based entity insists that there be some quick, final face to face negotiation in the UK but fails to give the Australian based individual much notice? The Aussies who are rescued from the curse of underemployment or unemployment by the new, hopefully reasonably well paid job opportunities might well be delighted that our man or woman hopped on the plane and despite feeling a bit jaded at LHR, went to the UK office and signed the deal.

The bottom line is that QF is happy to brag about its timekeeping - but in the case of QF9, the written evidence shows that it cannot deliver on its part of the bargain.

There's scant evidence that introducing a compensation scheme will be at a cost to safety. This hasn't occurred in European aviation or on the UK or Australian railways that have such schemes operating, varied as they may be by design and mode.

By the way, most passengers do not travel with QF ex Australia. The market share of QF and EK is roughly 33 per cent. Many passengers may only consider price or schedule, but those who think about further issues are making a judgement that the likes of CX, SQ, EY, D7, MH, PR, CZ, NZ, VA, DL, UA and BA are (on balance) far more likely to deliver the passenger punctually - and without any adverse safety occurrences - than can QF (and for that matter JQ).

Commercial aviation is the safest it has ever been, and that cannot happen without input from all the carriers mentioned above. To imply otherwise is scaremongering.

 

[nlagalle]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

jb747's latest month comparison of flight punctuality is valid. However my analysis of the situation during a whole year is preferable, because a higher sample size increases the confidence with which any user of the statistics can suggest that it's likely to show a typical result. So we know, for instance, that 52 per cent of the time, QF9 is officially late.

The individual who lives in Horsham (Victoria), whose relative dies at Horsham (UK), who takes a day or so to collect their thoughts, book a flight and arrive at the MEL airport for a funeral scheduled at short notice after QF9 is due to arrive at LHR is hardly a 'do you know who I am' individual. It is most unfair to categorise such a person as 'foolish.' They have no choice (and most would prefer not to be flying in such sad circumstances). If there are 350 passengers on a typical A388 or B744 flight, at least one or two are bound to be travelling for such a sad occasion. Some will be suddenly time sensitive. It is reasonable for them to expect that the airline they book with delivers them to LHR on time or extremely close to it.

Similarly, is a businessman or woman who is on the cusp of signing a multi million dollar employment-generating deal with a UK or German company 'foolish' or afflicted with their own self importance if the UK based entity insists that there be some quick, final face to face negotiation in the UK but fails to give the Australian based individual much notice?

The bottom line is that QF is happy to brag about its timekeeping - but in the case of QF9, the written evidence shows that it cannot deliver on its part of the bargain.

There's scant evidence that introducing a compensation scheme will be at a cost to safety. This hasn't occurred in European aviation or on the UK or Australian railways that have such schemes, varied as they may be, operating.

By the way, most passengers do not travel with QF ex Australia. The market share of QF and EK is roughly 33 per cent. Many passengers may only consider price or schedule, but those who think about further issues are making a judgement that the likes of CX, SQ, EY, D7, MH, PR, CZ, NZ, VA, DL, UA and BA are (on balance) far more likely to deliver the passenger safely - and in many cases more punctually - than can QF (and for that matter JQ).

Commercial aviation is the safest it has ever been, and that cannot happen without input from all the carriers mentioned above. To imply otherwise is scaremongering.

Considering the route has changed you should be comparing it separately. So I'll take JB's assessment as they have only been running the DXB route for a few months, that needs time to bed down.

Also people booking flights won't be looking at punctuality in their decision, most wouldn't know how to look it up.

You keep banging on about trains all the time, it's a totally different thing, and they are horribly unreliable at times, yet the "compensation" isn't even worth the effort to try and claim!

 

[Melburnian1]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

Considering the route has changed you should be comparing it separately. So I'll take JB's assessment as they have only been running the DXB route for a few months, that needs time to bed down.

Also people booking flights won't be looking at punctuality in their decision, most wouldn't know how to look it up.

You keep banging on about trains all the time, it's a totally different thing, and they are horribly unreliable at times, yet the "compensation" isn't even worth the effort to try and claim!

QF tells passengers how great its new route is through DXB. I'm comparing MEL to LHR, not intermediate points. Each airline determines which airport(s) it stops at en route to LHR.

If 'most wouldn't know' how to find whether a particular airline is punctual, all the more important that airlines that cannot fulfil good punctuality have their failings exposed in a public forum. This helps to educate first time and perhaps even a few more seasoned flyers. I recently publicised a pretty substantial delay afflicting a CX flight.

While I do not want to go dramatically off topic, the compensation available for UK train trips that don't meet the specified performance levels may at times be substantial, because ticket prices can be many hundreds of pounds Sterling if you are a walk up passenger who does not book in advance. Even in Victoria, if you're a V/Line adult fare traveller and have a compensation claim accepted, the normal value of the free return economy class ticket can be a fair bit (although not nearly as much as in the UK).

 

[nlagalle]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

QF tells passengers how great its new route is through DXB. I'm comparing MEL to LHR, not intermediate points. Each airline determines which airport(s) it stops at en route to LHR.

why? that can have a massive effect as we have already pointed out. Also the whole idea of DXB was the 1 stop to Europe, which was the selling point (and one reason why I like stopping in DXB)

If 'most wouldn't know' how to find whether a particular airline is punctual, all the more important that airlines that cannot fulfil good punctuality have their failings exposed in a public forum. This helps to educate first time and perhaps even a few more seasoned flyers. I recently publicised a pretty substantial delay afflicting a CX flight.

you are pointing out singular flights, take this over the thousands they operate over the month is a small portion. here's a tip for you. ALL airlines will have delays, no airline operates with the efficiency you seem to think they should. There are too many outside factors that can cause problems. Out of all my delayed flights this year, only 2 were Qantas' fault, where both aircraft went tech. Most were ATC delays. so who should pay for that?

While I do not want to go dramatically off topic, the compensation available for UK train trips that don't meet the specified performance levels may at times be substantial, because ticket prices can be many hundreds of pounds Sterling if you are a walk up passenger who does not book in advance. Even in Victoria, if you're a V/Line adult fare traveller and have a compensation claim accepted, the normal value of the free return economy class ticket can be a fair bit (although not nearly as much as in the UK).

we aren't in the UK here and it's still a piddly amount - Metro being an example - i cannot ever claim the so called "compensation" due to the ticket type I have.

 

[Melburnian1]

QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

QF1 often seems to be punctual between SYD and DXB. The schedule may have some padding, as it's not infrequent for this flight to arrive early at DXB.

However, on three recent consecutive days, QF1 has spent more time than its allowance in DXB before departing for LHR.

The Tuesday 20 August 2013 QF1 flight ex SYD arrived DXB 15 minutes early on Wednesday 21 August at 0020, but departed 122 minutes late at 0407, arriving LHR 113 minutes late at 0828.

The Wednesday 21 August 2013 QF1 arrived DXB at 0040 on Thursday 22 August but departed at 0309, arriving LHR at 0731, 56 minutes late.

The Thursday 22 August 2013 QF1 arrived DXB today (Friday 23 August 2013) six minutes early at 0029 but departed DXB at 0417, 132 minutes late, not arriving LHR until 0855, 140 minutes late.

The Friday 23 August 2013 QF1 each SYD has yet to reach DXB so it's too early to see if this pattern is continuing.

It is a long time before DXB commences those runway works that (at least for main occupant EK) appear set to result in some flight cancellations or regular delays.

What has caused these delays in DXB?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

QF1 often seems to be punctual between SYD and DXB. The schedule may have some padding, as it's not infrequent for this flight to arrive early at DXB.

However, on three recent consecutive days, QF1 has spent more time than its allowance in DXB before departing for LHR.

The Tuesday 20 August 2013 QF1 flight ex SYD arrived DXB 15 minutes early on Wednesday 21 August at 0020, but departed 122 minutes late at 0407, arriving LHR 113 minutes late at 0828.

The Wednesday 21 August 2013 QF1 arrived DXB at 0040 on Thursday 22 August but departed at 0309, arriving LHR at 0731, 56 minutes late.

The Thursday 22 August 2013 QF1 arrived DXB today (Friday 23 August 2013) six minutes early at 0029 but departed DXB at 0417, 132 minutes late, not arriving LHR until 0855, 140 minutes late.

The Friday 23 August 2013 QF1 each SYD has yet to reach DXB so it's too early to see if this pattern is continuing.

It is a long time before DXB commences those runway works that (at least for main occupant EK) appear set to result in some flight cancellations or regular delays.

What has caused these delays in DXB?

Did you bother to check other flights out of DXB for similar delays, or did you just obsess with the Qantas flights?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

Actually, don't bother, I just looked for myself. Many flights were delayed landing into DXB, reason why, I don't know.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

nlagalle, I did not claim that the QF flights arrived at the DXB gate significantly late; in fact, two of them were early.

What I was discussing was a delayed departure from DXB to LHR on three consecutive nights (or what we'd call 'super early morning' or 'the small hours') this week. Please post an answer if you have further information.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

nlagalle, I did not claim that the QF flights arrived at the DXB gate significantly late; in fact, two of them were early.

What I was discussing was a delayed departure from DXB to LHR on three consecutive nights (or what we'd call 'super early morning' or 'the small hours') this week. Please post an answer if you have further information.

It's easy enough to find.. between 12am and 6am DXB runs with an average of 52% of departures on time.. thats about the figure of QF9 isn't it? Seems the airport could be the issue (which I have alluded to earlier as EK has similar figures on this route)

 

[Melburnian1]

re: General Qantas Delays/Cancellations/etc. Discussion

The reason I am comparing the performance between MEL and LHR and not some intermediate 'station' (as the airlines call intermediate stops) is because as long haul routes go, it's always been THE route due to our historic ties with the UK (and of course the Republic of Ireland a short distance away). It is THE major route, considering the number of airlines from Oz that can connect you using their own metal all the way to LHR. The competition on the route (albeit with the more offbeat examples involving some smaller airports, or those that are not top of mind for most travellers) makes Australian east coast to LAX look like a duopoly (which it is not).

All airlines may well have at least occasional delays. Unfortunately for QF, its MEL - LHR flight QF9 is not a good performer for those wanting to arrive as 'per the advertised' (timetable).

True, we aren't in the UK, but many AFFers visit it or conversely may be expats working in 'the world's financial capital' as London is sometimes described. I'm very happy for some of our AFFers if they are earning such respectable moolah that a few hundred pounds in compensation is a 'trivial' amount, but to those of us who are peasants, it's quite a bit of money.

I purposefully did not specifically refer to metropolitan public transport when briefly discussing compensation schemes. The fares and therefore any actual or in-kind (i.e. a 'free ticket') compensation for delays or repeated cancellations are small compared to most airline fares or much longer distance, non urban rail travel.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

It may be, except that these delays ex DXB for QF1 have not been typical in recent times between DXB and LHR as far as I can recall. QF1 is timetabled to depart DXB for LHR later than QF9.

Is there something new that's cropped up?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

It may be, except that these delays ex DXB for QF1 have not been typical in recent times between DXB and LHR as far as I can recall. QF1 is timetabled to depart DXB for LHR later than QF9.

Is there something new that's cropped up?

Perhaps you need to look a bit further back. but as I have said, they have only been flying this route for a couple of months. Many things to bed down, unlike SIN. and QF1 leaves only an hour later.. Not that much difference, but still in the bracket that has the lowest performance. EK doesn't fare much better.

 

[The Beast]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

A friend of mine was on one of these flights, I think Thursday but I'm not certain. She blogged that they were told that they had to sit on the tarmac waiting for an A/C unit to be repaired. If that's so, it's probably one of those random things that happens rather than something systemic related to DXB runway works.

 

[yohy?!]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

what is this, kick-the-newbie-day?

 

[mannej]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

what is this, kick-the-newbie-day?

Not particularly - it's the supposed expert views that aren't always accurate that gets certain members fired up!

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

Monday 26 August 2013's QF1 ex SYD arrived DXB 15 minutes early on Tuesday 27 August, but again spent a large amount of time there compared to the schedule - three hours and 38 minutes instead of the 90 minutes that it is timetabled to do so - with the result that LHR arrival was exactly two hours late at 0835.

With the exception of Monday 26's QF9 ex MEL when it spent an extra hour in DXB, that flight has not been spending this inordinate amount of time on the ground at DXB despite being scheduled to depart only 65 minutes earlier for LHR than QF1, so it cannot be an issue adversely affecting every flight that departs DXB in the (local) 'small hours.'

Is it a DXB airport (lack of slots or queues of departing aircraft lining up), aircraft or staff related issue that keeps recurring with QF1, or is it a different cause each time?

 

[LadyC]

Re: QF1 delayed in DXB three days in a row

I have a friend who works as an ATC at DXB. We spoke about it recently and if I recall correctly, loads through the airport have risen but there is also an issue with flights going east into Indian air space that require a longer than usual gap between take offs that can cause delays.