Qantas Delays/Cancellations

[markis10]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

markis10, I may not fly as frequently as you might, but I fly reasonably frequently and have done so for many years. A 15 minute delay, or even a half hour one, is relatively common for a lot of flights. Two hours is getting towards the stage of 'major' and may be of interest to AFFers with friends or relatives on the flight. If it's something systemic, it may interest a wider audience.

QF has publicised these A380 flights via DXB as the next best thing to sliced bread. Understandably, it wouldn't like publicity re significant delays. The latter isn't what the advertising implies will be a seamless, routine and presumably punctual travel experience.

Point is its not systematic, it's random and human, if it was systematic the schedules would change, I don't think it's of interest to anyone outside of those on the plane, even them its likely to be close to care factor zero. I have never seen the words "next best thing to sliced bread" used in any advertising to do with airlines, mountain out of a molehill perhaps?

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

If it's something mechanical, electrical or in the software as in the aircraft becoming inoperable (or, in the typical way that the airlines like to use euphemisms, going 'tech') that's not 'human' as such (although humans put the aircraft together and maintain it). 'Systemic' occurrences have to start at some stage: the recent history of the B787's withdrawals due to severe battery problems is a case in point. It may not interest you, markis10: someone who is flying on QF1 in the next week may have a very different opinion.

Airlines routinely use a lot of emotion and sometimes even hyperbole in advertising their products. For instance, there's a lot of hype associated with lie flat beds on planes, but these deliver an inferior sleep to the best railway sleeping berths, yet the latter are rarely promoted with the same gusto.

AJ has been constantly spruiking the virtues of the DXB route to LHR from SYD and MEL on QF. Nothing wrong with that: he's QF's chief salesman, and has to try to get a financial return for his company's shareholders. However, these sorts of delays are rarely mentioned by airline spokesmen or spokeswomen, so it's important that prospective passengers see what happens in reality as opposed to the impression that the advertising endeavours to convey.

By the way, www.flightstats.com claims that QF1 has a 'very poor' timekeeping record when the 55 flights that it has monitored are considered. It's a relatively new routing for QF metal, and as I said above many of the delays seem to be on the ground at DXB not in a late departure from SYD. That's why I drew attention to today's fairly unusual occurrence.

 

[markis10]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

If it's something mechanical, electrical or in the software as in the aircraft becoming inoperable (or, in the typical way that the airlines like to use euphemisms, going 'tech') that's not 'human' as such (although humans put the aircraft together and maintain it). 'Systemic' occurrences have to start at some stage: the recent history of the B787's withdrawals due to severe battery problems is a case in point. It may not interest you, markis10: someone who is flying on QF1 in the next week may have a very different opinion.

Or it could be crewing issues, needle in the haystack stuff, and completely unrelated to anyone flying on any aircraft next week.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

Yawn.. It's about all I can say..

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

If it is 'crewing issues' - fair enough - but why aren't there standby crew available?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

If it is 'crewing issues' - fair enough - but why aren't there standby crew available?

It's simple.. They can't be onsite at the airport. If they are at the airport they are on the clock.

 

[awilcockson]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

By the way, www.flightstats.com claims that QF1 has a 'very poor' timekeeping record when the 55 flights that it has monitored are considered. It's a relatively new routing for QF metal, and as I said above many of the delays seem to be on the ground at DXB not in a late departure from SYD. That's why I drew attention to today's fairly unusual occurrence.

Good thing I have a 6 hour layover in DXB (midnight to 6am!) before my flight to Manchester. Got to love those awesome connecting flights

 

[markis10]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

If it is 'crewing issues' - fair enough - but why aren't there standby crew available?

Is this airline ops 101??? In a perfect world one could replace crew or planes with minimum interruptions, but having crew and aircraft sitting around doing nothing is expensive, how many other employers have assets just waiting to go to work?? Fantasy versus the real world.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

nlagalle, in many occupations there's a requirement to ring one's employer a few hours in advance if one is going to be off sick.

Of course, last minute episodes of sickness occur, but it's more often the case that one comes down with a virus or whatever not just a couple of hours before one turns up at the workplace. When I was on QF9 recently, a pilot went off sick, but we departed about 40 minutes late, indicating to me that the first pilot had given QF some hours' warning that he would not be flying that day.

markis10, in the bus and rail industries it's commonplace (particularly rail) to have standby crews. They're moving large numbers of passengers who expect their bus or train to front. I had thought that this was true of airlines as well. One difficulty might be that the standby crew or attendants are not type-rated for a particular plane. At times, it must be a lot more expensive to have a plane and 150 to 450 passengers significantly delayed than employing standby crews.

All transport operators have to 'watch the clock' in terms of how many hours their employees have been signed on for, even if they're just sitting in a cafeteria, office or lounge as a standby.

Many surface transport operators have spare operating equipment to try to minimise delays. True, a single aircraft may be worth far more than a road prime mover, a ferry or a rail locomotive, but revenues are also higher in the airline industry so it's all relative.

Perhaps the airline industry - which often has a 'we know it all' attitude - could actually learn a bit from these other transport modes?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

nlagalle, in many occupations there's a requirement to ring one's employer a few hours in advance if one is going to be off sick.

Of course, last minute episodes of sickness occur, but it's more often the case that one comes down with a virus or whatever not just a couple of hours before one turns up at the workplace. When I was on QF9 recently, a pilot went off sick, but we departed about 40 minutes late, indicating to me that the first pilot had given QF some hours' warning that he would not be flying that day.

And many occupations don't have some of the restrictions of aviation regulations.

Can I ask, have you read any CAR's and CAO's? Perhaps learn about the industry before making uninformed comments. You are an armchair expert with no knowledge.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

nlagalle, both road and rail industries have very significant restrictions for fatigue management. The clear intention of governments has been to impose more and more regulation on such employees. The regulations may differ from the airline industry in terms of permitted periods on, off and between duties and maximum number of hours able to be worked, but some in the surface transport sector would view the requirements as restrictive.

If you work in the airline industry for QF, another entity or are a qualified pilot - great. However I am writing from a passenger's perspective.

 

[ozmille]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

\ozmille, great that you could enjoy sitting in the first class lounge, as long as you did not have any urgent appointments in DXB, LHR or elsewhere. This isn't always the everyday experience for many reasonably frequent flyers, who are among the 80 per cent plus of air travellers in economy class seats (although some have lounge access, though not necessarily FLounge).

as this was a holiday trip I didn't have to be somewhere urgently but even so if an engine needs replacing there is not much you can do about it (luckily was able to guest some other people in the lounge)

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

Very genrous of you, ozmille. I'm sure that you made their day!

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

nlagalle, both road and rail industries have very significant restrictions for fatigue management. The clear intention of governments has been to impose more and more regulation on such employees. The regulations may differ from the airline industry in terms of permitted periods on, off and between duties and maximum number of hours able to be worked, but some in the surface transport sector would view the requirements as restrictive.

If you work in the airline industry for QF, another entity or are a qualified pilot - great. However I am writing from a passenger's perspective.

I'll repeat what I just posted.. Do you have any experience with the airline industry? I'll tell you how it has nothing in common with rail.

 

[mannej]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

If you work in the airline industry for QF, another entity or are a qualified pilot - great. However I am writing from a passenger's perspective.

Sorry, but a passengers perspective doesn't give a great deal of expertise. Yes you can analyse the raw numbers, but it is more complex then just numbers.

As for comparisons with other industries, as a passenger there is no way you are qualified to make the comparisons...

As for the working with QF dig, that is a very unoriginal throwback line...

 

[straitman]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

And many occupations don't have some of the restrictions of aviation regulations.

Can I ask, have you read any CAR's and CAO's? Perhaps learn about the industry before making uninformed comments. You are an armchair expert with no knowledge.

Melburnian1,

I have attached 'some' of the links to 'some' of the regulations for you to read and get a grasp of. I warn you though that the CAO48 and others are written by lawyers for the use of non lawyers and so what you initially read is often not the real intent of the text. I will add a few more references shortly.

In no particular order:

Civil Aviation Order 48.1 Instrument 2013
Civil Aviation Order 48.1 - Flight time limitations - Pilots (02/12/2004)
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Home


Actually I am not going to do all the work for you but simply give the links to the main pages from which you will be able to get the appropriate sub sections:

Civil Aviation Regulations (CAR) 1988
Civil Aviation Safety Regulations (CASR) 1998

Until you have a basic understanding of these then you need to take our word on how it works.

As part of getting a Commercial Pilots Licence (CPL) there is a requirement to do a 3 hr examination (open book) on these regulations. Sounds easy but it is not I can assure you. To get an Airline Transport Pilots Licence (ATPL) it is a lot more complex again.

I know all this because I've been there, done that, and also worked as a Chief Pilot and had a Command Multi Engine Instrument Rating for nearly 30 years. :!:

Believe me when I say it is not as easy as you think.

 

[elbarto]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

QF has publicised these A380 flights via DXB as the next best thing to sliced bread. Understandably, it wouldn't like publicity re significant delays. The latter isn't what the advertising implies will be a seamless, routine and presumably punctual travel experience.

What makes you think these delays have only been occurring since the move to Dubai? I can assure you they were occurring when they went through Singapore.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

straitman, many thanks. Complex, with requirements that overlap one another and result in technically challenging rostering that must require a lot of programming by IT specialists. I observed how there was a disallowance motion for one set of regulations before Parliament prior to the latter's proroguing (for the certain electoral event tomorrow). That motion will now have lapsed, but may be reinstated in due course.

One of the most fascinating comments was on page 11 of proposed amendments discussing how slowly we adapt to time changes - particularly easterly, which accords with many of my friends' experiences. Little wonder that AFFer jb747 discusses being in a state of more or less 'perpetual jet lag' or similar for long distance, international aviators.

In the end it must be a business judgement for QF and its competitors on whether they have standby staff at major airports (not at home) who sign on at a similar time to when major flights depart. If that's too risky in terms of exceeding permitted hours of a tour of duty (even if its the standby - reserve - equivalent) or too costly or impractical, passengers (and the airline's accountants) just have to wear any delays or (for the airline) additional costs. I realise that at home standby staff airline staff may have a requirement to be at the airport within a couple of hours of receiving a call from the operations department, which shows an admirable flexible attitude on the part of the employee.

None of this takes away from fatigue management now also being an accepted principle - subject to very strict requirements - in surface transport industries just as needs to be the case in aviation. The challenges may not be identical compared to airlines, but the possibility of serious consequences should things go wrong from a fatigued employee are just as concerning.

That aside, what went wrong with QF1 this evening?

elbarto, I did not make any comments about the previous QF1 flight routings one way or the other. I looked at the available public data for 55 recorded flights of QF1 via DXB, because as others have pointed out, DXB is a whole new ball game with a markedly different length in nautical miles and hours' flying time for the first sector ex Oz compared with the previous much shorter SYD - SIN sector.

 

[mannej]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

As others have said, what is the point of trying to figure out what went wrong with a 2 hour delay?
It is funny, one of the Chinese airlines had a 10-12 hr delay out of MEL early last week, it happens to all airlines. You just hear about it on some more than others.

 

[markis10]

Re: QF1 delayed by two hours in SYD

As others have said, what is the point of trying to figure out what went wrong with a 2 hour delay?
It is funny, one of the Chinese airlines had a 10-12 hr delay out of MEL early last week, it happens to all airlines. You just hear about it on some more than others.

QF2 didnt operate on the 4th Sept yet that does not seem to be of interest!