Qantas Error Fare: First Class to Los Angeles from Sydney $4,299 return @qantas.com (several dates incuding xmas holidays)

[MEL_Traveller]

Not sure that is in any way enforceable. You purchased an F class fare that was incorrect. QF won’t honor it. You can reject its offer at anytime before you board the plane.

Under the contract of carriage? QF has invoked their rights, offering an alternative, or refund. You either accept and pay, or don’t accept and the money is refunded.

If the new fare is fully refundable, then you can always cancel that. But I don’t think the original ticket ‘stands’ given the contract of carriage.

 

[Cynicor]

Always so many expert contract lawyers seem to appear (ozbargain, reddit etc)when these mistakes appear (airfares, goods, anything, really). I’m surprised there’s enough work for all of them the rest of the year.
It’s been shown time and time again that you are entitled to nothing other than a refund, anything else is actual goodwill.

 

[Danger]

Always so many expert contract lawyers seem to appear (ozbargain, reddit etc)when these mistakes appear (airfares, goods, anything, really). I’m surprised there’s enough work for all of them the rest of the year.
It’s been shown time and time again that you are entitled to nothing other than a refund, anything else is actual goodwill.

That hasn't been my experience in a court of law.

 

[Cynicor]

That hasn't been my experience in a court of law.

Care to expand on that? Is the situation in any way comparable to a mass publicised error?

 

[Danger]

Care to expand on that? Is the situation in any way comparable to a mass publicised error?

I've alluded to it on AFF several times over the years. In one well publicised so called "error fare", the airline (certainly one of the 10 most recognisable in the world, I would think) cancelled. I took it to an Australian court for breach of contract and was awarded the monetary difference between what I paid and the cost of a replacement F ticket.

In another, I took a less well known but still very large airline to an administrative body over a similar situation the airline said was an error. The airline ignored most correspondence but eventually agreed to pay the difference. That one included a lengthy NDA.

I did lose a third case in an Australian court against another top 10 (in terms of recognition) airline. In that case, I failed to submit evidence during the discovery phase (that's not actually what it's called in a civil matter, I don't think, but that's the idea) that would have shown that the airline's testimony during the hearing was a lie. In any event, the case wasn't dismissed for lack of standing or thrown out for lack of merit.

I will add that I have no issue with mistakes or errors; we all make them. It's the grossly uneven playing field and 'thumb-our-nose-at-you' approach from most that really gets on my nerves.

 

[Cynicor]

fair enough. Did you win due to lack of airline response, rather than winning the case on merit, out of interest, noting that only 1 case was possibly actually won.

 

[Danger]

fair enough. Did you win due to lack of airline response, rather than winning the case on merit, out of interest, noting that only 1 case was possibly actually won.

In the case I won, no, the airline defended it using lawyers from what at the time was the second largest law firm in the world. The forum I brought the action in didn't allow lawyers at the hearing, but the firm did all the legwork and acted in all the ways that give lawyers bad names. At the hearing, the airline sent three of its office stay to appear for it. They were woefully unprepared and completely out of their depth.

On the case I lost, that went to a hearing and the airline was represented by a large Australian law firm. I was targeted for costs when I lost and I was very worried for some weeks while they played out. Fortunately, costs weren't awarded.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

fair enough. Did you win due to lack of airline response, rather than winning the case on merit, out of interest, noting that only 1 case was possibly actually won.

I think the point Danger is making is that there can be wiggle room in these situations.

SWISS lost its first round of ‘Rangoon’ fares because its tariff, filed in Canada, didn’t allow it to unilaterally cancel fares in the way it did.

Once SWISS turned to contract law and the doctrine of mistake, it was successful in every subsequent case.

The risk is that you can incur considerable fees in taking action. And it’s a gamble whether or not you will win.

 

[Cynicor]

I think the point Danger is making is that there can be wiggle room in these situations.

SWISS lost its first round of ‘Rangoon’ fares because its tariff, filed in Canada, didn’t allow it to unilaterally cancel fares in the way it did.

Once SWISS turned to contract law and the doctrine of mistake, it was successful in every subsequent case.

The risk is that you can incur considerable fees in taking action. And it’s a gamble whether or not you will win.

Precisely. Even if some people, sporadically, may have individual wins, in general I’ve not heard any mass enforcement of error pricing in Aus, airfares or not

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Precisely. Even if some people, sporadically, may have individual wins, in general I’ve not heard any mass enforcement of error pricing in Aus, airfares or not

I think that’s correct. But we don’t really have a body to do that here in Australia. Canada has the CTA, the US has DOT.

We kinda have no one, and it’s debatable whether the new ombudsperson will have that role. Not that mistakes happen that often in AU.

While the DOT was initially keen to enforce airline mistakes, and had a solid track record in doing do, there were a number of flyers who sought to take advantage. Killing the goose so to speak. This small group of people ultimately led to the DOT completely changing its rules, mostly in favour of the airline.

Lax still have their legal rights under contract, but you gotta question whether it’s worth the effort or cost.

 

[Danger]

I think the point Danger is making is that there can be wiggle room in these situations.

SWISS lost its first round of ‘Rangoon’ fares because its tariff, filed in Canada, didn’t allow it to unilaterally cancel fares in the way it did.

Once SWISS turned to contract law and the doctrine of mistake, it was successful in every subsequent case.

The risk is that you can incur considerable fees in taking action. And it’s a gamble whether or not you will win.

In both of the actions of mine that went before a body, the airlines argued mistake. Some people seem to forget that the doctrine has (at least) three limbs. It's not simply a matter of the airline saying 'We made a mistake. Here's your money back. Go away now.'

And yes, there's certainly risk. I've rolled the dice and both won and lost.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In both of the actions of mine that went before a body, the airlines argued mistake. Some people seem to forget that the doctrine has (at least) three limbs. It's not simply a matter of the airline saying 'We made a mistake. Here's your money back. Go away now.'

And yes, there's certainly risk. I've rolled the dice and both won and lost.

Agree. It has to be ‘obvious’ and one party has to ‘snap it up’ knowing it is a mistake, and seeking to take advantage of that mistake.

In the current case it might be hard to argue it wasn’t obvious, unless you could show a booking time stamp in advance of the deal being advertised on the major bulletin boards.

This is possible a borderline case. Had you purchased this as a one-off, infrequent flyer, and yours happened to be the only fare sold before the mistake was identified and pulled… it may not be obvious that a fare 4x economy was not indeed first class.

But I don’t think anyone’s come forward with that argument!

 

[muppet]

Under the contract of carriage? QF has invoked their rights, offering an alternative, or refund. You either accept and pay, or don’t accept and the money is refunded.

If the new fare is fully refundable, then you can always cancel that. But I don’t think the original ticket ‘stands’ given the contract of carriage.

Yeah I agree the original ticket doesn’t stand. But the new J ticket, with J fare rules is essentially a one sided transaction set up by QF with the money already paid for a different ticket. The new “reply in 7 days” appears to be an attempt to add some new T&Cs after they’ve already created the ticket.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yeah I agree the original ticket doesn’t stand. But the new J ticket, with J fare rules is essentially a one sided transaction set up by QF with the money already paid for a different ticket. The new “reply in 7 days” appears to be an attempt to add some new T&Cs after they’ve already created the ticket.

So under the conditions of contract, Qantas can refund the fare. They’re giving you 7 days to decide if you want to take their new offer.

So either the original ticket gets refunded, or you decide not to take up their new offer. Either way, I’d don’t see how you have your original ticket right up until departure?

 

[muppet]

So under the conditions of contract, Qantas can refund the fare. They’re giving you 7 days to decide if you want to take their new offer.

So either the original ticket gets refunded, or you decide not to take up their new offer. Either way, I’d don’t see how you have your original ticket right up until departure?

But QF hasn’t given us 7 days. I already have a new ticket whether I agree or not.

I get what you’re saying, and if QF had refunded the money and said if you want a new J ticket for the same price you have 7 days to contact us, then I’d agree.

I guess my argument is a bit like when QF makes a substantial schedule change - for me I just don’t accept for months essentially making my booking fully refundable by deciding down the track whether or not I accept.

 

[kpc]

I cancelled mine 2 days ago but I was never told I had to cancel by a certain date by the Qf rep that rang me last Monday. She said she will put a note in the booking that I can cancel for a full refund if I chose not to fly.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But QF hasn’t given us 7 days. I already have a new ticket whether I agree or not.

I get what you’re saying, and if QF had refunded the money and said if you want a new J ticket for the same price you have 7 days to contact us, then I’d agree.

I guess my argument is a bit like when QF makes a substantial schedule change - for me I just don’t accept for months essentially making my booking fully refundable by deciding down the track whether or not I accept.

Oh, yes, I see.

I suppose their ‘7 days’ is conditional on you seeing the email, and being able to contact QF within the time.

I suspect they would be happy for cancellations on these, at any time.

 

[frodo]

I suspect they would be happy for cancellations on these, at any time.

Quite possibly, but I don't want to take that risk.

When they rebooked everyone in business class the email mentioned the following:

"Any future date changes are subject to our standard fare rules, and any applicable fare difference.
...
If you do not wish to proceed with this offer, you can request a full refund by replying to this email directly confirming that you wish to cancel and refund this booking."

This was then followed up by an email a few days later saying that my case will be closed in 7 days. It may well be that the only thing happening is the closure of the individual case ID which was created, and I will still be able to request a refund later on.

But it could also mean that if I keep the ticket and then cancel it further down the track, they may try to charge a $600 cancellation fee as their argument would be along the lines of 'this was a business sale fare which you had enough time to request a refund but decided to keep' - this is the assumption I'm working on.

 

[zinkle]

I booked 2 x MEL-LAX for $8,697 during the price error. I used the $25 pay-later option. The next day the "pay now" price jumped to $46,000!! This had to be paid by midnight today. I rang Qantas today and after a lot of checking with supervisors they offered to rebook us on J at the original error price or they could refund the $50 pre-payment.

But when it came down to the wire I didn't have the readies so have cancelled and got the 50 bucks back. You gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em

I think it's risky to do the pay-later option if any of these price errors happen again. It's better to buy the ticket(s) outright and then see how things pan out. The T&C's on the pay-later option make it a gamble.

This deal has brought me out of a 10 year AFF forum hiatus! I followed this on OzBargain and managed to snag two itineraries for 5 people to the states. So i was 1 of the ~300 customers and got 10 of the ~1000 tickets.

Our total came up to A$21,398.80 for SYD-LAX-DFW (in F then J USA Domestic) leaving 14th December, returning 2nd January. A subsequent booking priced the same trip at whopping A$147,875! The other itinerary was December 7th and returning December 31st, the rest of my family were asleep so booked two itineraries to see which fit better with us.

I found booking the flights you could pick the BPAY option as well as the reserve the price for $25. As this was booked on the Friday morning (23/8) the terms spelled out that you need to pay by midnight of the same day. In reality, my tickets were cancelled by QANTAS after midnight on the following Wednesday (28/8) so there was a little leeway, I imagine because of the delays with BPAY more than this one off mistake fare.

The BPAY way was also a safeguard if everything went belly up during the day and meant that I wasn't scrambling for credit on my cards and/or waiting with frozen cards for a refund.

Also despite all changes, the price I had to pay was still the same the whole time and we weren't contacted by QANTAS, presumably because the fare hadn't been paid/confirmed/ticketed.

Ultimately we chose not to go. $21k is still $21k. But it was fun while it lasted. I tried all sorts of combinations - Boston, New York, Dallas, Orlando, Miami, even tried a few Canadian locations and Hawaii, but found it was USA mainland only.

Hope those who followed through with their purchase have an awesome time!

 

[kpc]

I cancelled mine 2 days ago but I was never told I had to cancel by a certain date by the Qf rep that rang me last Monday. She said she will put a note in the booking that I can cancel for a full refund if I chose not to fly.

That was quick..funds all back in my crrdit card acct.