Qantas frequent flyers unleash over ‘almost worthless points’ in submissions to Senate

[stopthecap]

im 50/50 on the issue if availability but is possible. Since 21' I have soley flown J SYD-BKK, BKK - Rome, Rome - BKK. The more important issue which could be addressed is the UX which is terrible. Checking multi trip for single flights, checking multiple aiports, not knowing if a flight is direct or not before clicking a date is all too tedious in this day and age but it sure does pay for those who have the time or patience or technical skill

 

[gilldo]

What has the FFP got to do with bilateral agreements? Whether Australia has bilateral agreements with other nations for airport access has zero relationship to Qantas' nor any other airlines FF scheme.

If it is anything like the letters to the SMH travel section, I'm betting most of the complaints are from people who are looking at "anytime" rather than "classic" awards and not understanding the difference (and the masthead too uneducated themselves to correct the inaccurate claims re award seat cost).

Are these same people complaining about Flybuys or some of the actual junk health insurance being sold?

Do they think earning some points at Woolworths when they dont fly means QF owes them something? Earning points is NOT a guarantee, its an opportunity. You can choose to play the game or not. I bet they never even read the T&Cs when they joined.

Classic awards can be difficult to get but I dispute that QFF points are junk, I've done 2 * J 318K OWAs in the last 2 years, if id purchased those flights Id have needed to fund an extra $11-12k on top of the taxes paid on the award flights for each one. If one is after domestic awards to/from the capital cities these are plentiful. International and regional flights are harder to find, but certainly not impossible.

The last 18 months, and pre-COVID, I'd have agreed with you.

I too got 2 * J 318K OWAs as well, along with 2*J USA return flights then. But now, things are different.

If you have a look on qantas.com now you see almost no International Classic reward flight inventory at all, particularly to/from Australia. In addition, what they do release is in unpredictable bursts rather than consistently 11 months beforehand as they used to do.

So in short, people are quite within their rights to feel aggrieved at the state of the current program. Qantas are big on promoting the program, encouraging people to collect points and redeem them for flights, yet the availability of reasonable flights is now almost non-existent.

 

[jase05]

But I find it funny all the QR fan boys are still QFF members, if you all prefer QR so much more why not join their FF program - then surely you would have zero issue redeeming on their flights?

Personally I’m not a huge fan of their program but have switched over to BAEC and that is now my default OW program.
I‘m no longer chasing status with QF but as we still are able to earn a stack of points more easily with them I keep an account and it comes in useful for partner redemptions in Asia and Europe aswell as the odd redemption on QF to CGK and MNL

 

[Kangol]

(Almost) all of the unfounded complaints in the broader population are from people who fail to understand that QFF is the game made by Qantas, played by rules they control.
They determine how you play the game, not the other way round.
It's a loyalty program for customers who are loyal to Qantas.
Follow their rules and you will be rewarded in playing their game.
You are their pawn.
Everyone playing the game gets what they deserve, nothing more, nothing less.
If you disagree with their rules, you should never have signed up in the first place. Just leave.

Anyone who doesn't understand the above doesn't understand Qantas' game.

"You knew what I was when you picked me up!"

 

[Mr H]

I note that all those listing their successful redemptions over the last several years have QF Platinum in their profile. I've pretty much given up on using QF points on anything international due to lack of availability.

Not me - I'm NB.

 

[levelnine]

Except that QR withhold awards from QFF so giving them more access doesn't change that because the reason is QFs partnership with EK which isn't going away.

Giving QR more slots and therefore allowing them to fly more seats into/out of Australia (including award seats) does benefit QFF members in two ways:
1. It allows people holding both sets of points to redeem on QR, reducing demand for the piddling amount of award seats QF releases.
2. It creates more competition in the frequent flyer program space. QR becomes a viable alternative program for more people, forcing QF to improve its program (by, for example, releasing more award seats).

 

[levelnine]

I've never had success in getting a seat released as WP. One of the operators acted like I was asking for the unicorn.

I'd be interested in getting an idea of which routes (and whether in peak/off-peak) you have failed to get a release for.

Now of course you need to be flexible in terms of your dates, but apart from QF's LHR routes, I've never had a problem getting WP seat releases. I've never tried QF11/12, but I hear that also can be hard to get releases on due to it being such a high-demand route.

 

[RooFlyer]

But I find it funny all the QR fan boys are still QFF members, if you all prefer QR so much more why not join their FF program - then surely you would have zero issue redeeming on their flights?

<Looks around .... me?> In my case I joined Privilege Cub ages ago and have recently returned from a wonderful Avios redemption trip to Istanbul (onwards to Chisinau) in QSuites . ADL-MEL-DOH-SAW. TR here - go, on have a look ... and actually see what you are missing out on; compare the suite, the meal presentation and the true dine-on-demand to what you are used to. And yes, I had zero problem redeeming for it, as I had my BAEC membership linked and was able to transfer Avios across to top up my PC account.

And totally straightforward - search for the route I wanted, dates flexible within a week, there it is, select, pay, done. No having to choose 'classic rewards' filter button or use multicity etc etc to find what would otherwise be invisible and all the rest of the stuffing around you have to do with Qantas. Again, you are probably so used to the Qantas way you simply don't realise how easy it can be to redeem long haul premium seats. Not saying premium cabin always available - of course not, but it was very easy for me and when they are there, it will be easy to see, and easy to redeem.

And of course I'm not going to give up my QFF - Qantas has been determined to throw SCs and status at me this year, its not as if I have had to do much. Free Plat status enabled me to have lunch at the Melbourne FLounge in transit on my recent QR PC redemption .

Memo to Qantas. It doesn't have to be as difficult and as frustrating as you make it!

 

[Pushka]

I'd be interested in getting an idea of which routes (and whether in peak/off-peak) you have failed to get a release for.

Now of course you need to be flexible in terms of your dates, but apart from QF's LHR routes, I've never had a problem getting WP seat releases. I've never tried QF11/12, but I hear that also can be hard to get releases on due to it being such a high-demand route.

Pretty much travel to UK and in non peak times both here and there. I start looking a month before release to get an idea of what is around. Last year I managed a route via KL but had to use complex means of getting there. Eg city hopper LHR to AMS then AMS to KL then KL to Adelaide. All on different PNR so had to allow time in KL (days) in case of a delay. A general Adelaide (or even Mel) flight to LHR (ie not multi trip) yielded no results. I'd try two pax then 1 pax. Multiple days. I couldn't book this route on the 1 PNR as it created failure at the selection point. People just don't have the time or even knowledge to play this game that Qantas throws at them. This year for next year? I ended up buying the tickets. Absolutely nothing. The Qantas system is designed to put people off using their points to fly but saving them to buy wine and toasters. However I did get the family tickets to Fiji in non peak times. Absolutely amazed at that.

 

[RooFlyer]

The news outlets focus on Mom and Pop with 5-6 kids, cannot get J seats (rewards) and then complain they cannot go to Disneyland in School Holidays. IMHO it is all just a game and one needs to work out how it is played.

Yes, the news outlets do, as they are the ones who have been royally screwed with outcome over what is promoted by the company.

But I ask the question (rhetorically, not to you ) - why should anyone need to "learn the game" to achieve what Qantas routinely promises and what should be a straightforward method, at least, when availability is there? For instance, why should Ma and Pa (I don't like that categorisation) have to get to know about using the multi city tool? Why should they have to - why not just present options to everyone who searches and selects flexible dates? Why not just present the 'CR' results first, and then allow people to look at more expensive options if there are no CRs?

 

[levelnine]

Pretty much travel to UK

Ahh yes, not surprising then. LHR routes are pretty much locked off for WP, even P1s seems to struggle.

QFF is particularly shambolic for European routes. Fortunately, VFF is a gold mine — Singapore, Etihad, Qatar.

 

[Pushka]

Ahh yes, not surprising then. LHR routes are pretty much locked off for WP, even P1s seems to struggle.

QFF is particularly shambolic for European routes. Fortunately, VFF is a gold mine — Singapore, Etihad, Qatar.

Yes and I'd like to explore but Virgin don't work so well for Adelaide business travel. We are both members but no action.

 

[Lynda2475]

The gripes from oldies who booked via a TA re having to carry own bags is bizarre. It is normal on all airlines for passengers to carry their own hand luggage, and bring/collect own checked bags. Get bags with wheels, if you cant move your own bag then you have over packed or are no longer fit to fly unaccompanied by a younger person or without arranging help at airport. Poor planning and unrelated to QFF program.

Further seems suspect that a TA would be booking FF redemptions, and why did the TA book tight connections for oldies who apparently can't even carry their own hand luggage?

The points expiry ones are silly, did they not buy any groceries or do any shopping for 18 months? Obviously were not engaged with the program. The earn or use 1 point is not onerous even during a pandemic. Other programs offer no way to extend points.

I note that all those listing their successful redemptions over the last several years have QF Platinum in their profile

But I was not yet Platinum when I booked the redemptions I quoted. Both of my OWA have include J flights into and out of LHR and other EU cities. The 2022 was on QF1.

The recent trend to do random drops of seats is annoying because it advantages non status passengers who should have to wait until status pax get first dibs as mentioned in the program terms. The 330 day drops were best and hope they return on all routes, still there domestically.

But I disagree the points are junk, they have provided real value to me. And during covid were a no risk way to book domestic travel with no financial loss (since you can use points for taxes too) when state boarders were slamming shut with 1 days notice.

 

[Mr H]

The recent trend to do random drops of seats is annoying because it advantages non status passengers who should have to wait until status pax get first dibs as mentioned in the program terms.

Full disclosure: I have no status so I clearly have a horse in this race...

I don't think QF award flights should be made available to status holders on a preferential basis. The FF points are sold on the basis of being able to redeem for flights. While [almost] everyone understands that the stock of award seats is limited, I don't think the points are sold on the basis that some customers will have access to stock when others won't. I see nothing objectionable in giving status holders access to services that do not disadvantage non-status passengers - e.g. lounge access, extra luggage, etc. - but I think there is a problem when many QFF members can redeem on any airline except QF.

 

[levelnine]

I think there is a problem when many QFF members can redeem on any airline except QF.

There are plenty of award seats available on QF metal. They are simply on dull domestic routes.

There is always going to be a demand-supply imbalance for the most prized award seats (premium cabins on long-haul flights). There has to be some way of allocating them. Why should luck rather than loyalty be the deciding factor here? That makes no commercial sense for the airline.

I don't have a problem with random batch releases. They make commercial sense for an airline — only release seats when you know those seats are otherwise going to go empty. My solution would be to expand the seat release feature — give it to SG and expand it for WP/P1.

 

[Mr H]

There are plenty of award seats available on QF metal. They are simply on dull domestic routes.

There is always going to be a demand-supply imbalance for the most prized award seats (premium cabins on long-haul flights). There has to be some way of allocating them. Why should luck rather than loyalty be the deciding factor here? That makes no commercial sense for the airline.

I don't have a problem with random batch releases. They make commercial sense for an airline — only release seats when you know those seats are otherwise going to go empty. My solution would be to expand the seat release feature — give it to SG and expand it for WP/P1.

Ok, maybe there was a bit of hyperbowl on my part. But I still think it is unreasonable to sell everyone points (aka gift vouchers) but allow some of those customers more access to redemptions. I don't know of any other airline that does this overtly. First come, first served is the fair way.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Ok, maybe there was a bit of hyperbowl on my part. But I still think it is unreasonable to sell everyone points (aka gift vouchers) but allow some of those customers more access to redemptions. I don't know of any other airline that does this overtly. First come, first served is the fair way.

However, it's a Frequent Flyer program.

By your argument I think you could apply the same logic and say everyone should get lounge access, priority boarding, etc.

 

[Lynda2475]

"Greater Access to Award Seats" is a clearly published benefit for Gold and above; and it is after all a frequent flyer program.

Over the years it's expanded and earning points on the ground is quicker and easier than flying, but ultimately QF have the program to keep you engaged with them as an airline and still want you to pay to fly with them.

It may not suit the way you pay the points game, but rewarding loyalty is not hidden, you knew that to be the case when you decided to play.

That said with PC members being able to earn SCs on award flights, they have in recent years thrown you alone, if you redeem on QF more than partners you can get status too.

 

[Mr H]

However, it's a Frequent Flyer program.

By your argument I think you could apply the same logic and say everyone should get lounge access, priority boarding, etc.

I think that's a bit of a straw man. Status, access to lounges, etc. are part of the program as it is sold. But these days, the points are sold separately by many vendors, all of whom do it on the basis of "imagine where X0,000 points could get you...". The status and the points have really become two separate beings.

 

[levelnine]

I don't know of any other airline that does this overtly. First come, first served is the fair way.

Don't quite a few airlines give preferential access to their elites in premium cabins? Singapore, Lufthansa, AirFrance, etc. I don't know the intricacies of these programs, but thought I'd read about preferential access at various times.

In terms of fairness, I'd say that QF's first priority is always going to be profit rather than fairness. It's a business, after all. And I'd say the most profitable option is to keep your most profitable customers as happy as possible.

Someone acquiring points via credit card churning, etc then redeeming them for a OWA is making QF very little in the grand scheme of things, so it makes sense to put these people at the back of the queue. If they get fed up with Qantas and leave, not a huge amount is lost. And where else are they going to go? It's not like Singapore or Velocity offer a better round-the-world option.