Qantas frequent flyers unleash over ‘almost worthless points’ in submissions to Senate

[encryptededdy]

In 2019 Qantas introduced a new tier of points redemption which effectively reduced the value of points by up to 80-90%. At the same time they spun this by saying they'd listened to customer "feedback" and were releasing more FF seats however they did not say people would need 8 or 9 times as many points to use them.

The changes in 2019 are not really relevant here.

Points + Pay has existed since well before 2019, and the changes in 2019 did not reduce Classic Reward availability. What did happen in 2019 was a slight devaluation of QFF points as the redemption cost for premium cabin awards went up around 15~25%.

I think the issue now is the following combined;

1. People have more points than ever, especially saved up over covid and, subjectively, I think more people are into the frequent flyer "game", driven by increased publicity etc. (e.g. by influencers everywhere). As a result, there is more demand for reward seats as there's more people holding large points balances.

2. There's generally increased demand for flights out of Australia. See cash fares to this regard. The increased cash fares probably also make people want to use their points more.

3. As a result of the above and the currently high fare environment, Qantas has evidently taken the commercial decision to release less award seats on some flights, for instance to Europe. This combined with the fact that Qantas still has reduced capacity compared to pre-covid (especially international) contributes further to the lack of reward seats.

4. Partner airlines have reduced award space available for QFFers to redeem. Most are due to the same reasons above, some may be due to beef with Qantas (e.g. QR)

Point 3 is really the only one that Qantas has strong control over, and I think if they want to satisfy customers for the time being they will need to accept reduced profit from Qantas Loyalty by "purchasing" more seats from Qantas to release as award seats.

 

[anyonebutqantas]

The Government should have told Qatar that they can have more flying rights to Australia if they release more seats to QFF and Velocity members (not this 3 day rule nonsense) and that would have been a win for everyone.

 

[encryptededdy]

The Government should have told Qatar that they can have more flying rights to Australia if they release more seats to QFF and Velocity members (not this 3 day rule nonsense) and that would have been a win for everyone.

Even on their own frequent flyer program there's basically no regularly priced premium award seats out of Australia, only "Flex" (double avios) fares last time I checked.

Even with increased capacity into Australia I think there's enough revenue demand for premium seats right now that nobody really wants to release more award seats at the cost of revenue seats.

 

[Quickstatus]

Hey Qantas
Put a $ value on the FF point.

The FF point is then redeemed for $$ which is them used to purchase a seat.
No need to make the FF program complicated, and then we know when you flick a few FF points as compensation we know how much its worth

Make it transparent...Oh wait....

 

[Mr H]

For me losing LAN was a big hit, because I actually visit Latin America, it really limits OWA and RTW options. Would be good if they came back or Avianca or Aerolíneas Argentinas swapped alliances.

Id like to see another EU airline too since they have lost a couple over the years.

ME airlines add zero value for me personally. I can connect to anywhere I want to go in EU via Asia, UK or US.

I agree that losing LAN is a blow to the network, particularly since only LAN and Avianca really cover South America comprehensively.

But I don't think the loss of South America is grounds for wishing more airlines to leave the alliance or to withdraw their flights from QFF awards. We all have parts of the network that are of more interest to us, while others are interested in other parts of the network. We do not all want to go to Europe or America. For the network to thrive, it needs more routes, not fewer - even the ones you or I might not personally choose to use.

 

[Mr H]

Hey Qantas
Put a $ value on the FF point.

The FF point is then redeemed for $$ which is them used to purchase a seat.
No need to make the FF program complicated, and then we know when you flick a few FF points as compensation we know how much its worth

Make it transparent...Oh wait....

That is an idea which already exists through Points + Pay. Most of us prefer to focus on Classic Rewards because they are much better value. Please don't wish that away.

 

[williamsf1]

I know you are not a fan of Qatar or the Middle East, but QR does have a really impressive set of connections. Apart from TK, I can't think of another airline that has such good and plentiful connections to north and east Africa, Asia and Europe. They transform OW in the eastern hemisphere from a series of hubs and spokes into a genuine network. They are a huge loss to the QFF redemptions (OK, technically they are still there if you book them three days before you fly) and I can't see any other suitable replacement.

Imagine a TK QF partnership ........

 

[encryptededdy]

That is an idea which already exists through Points + Pay. Most of us prefer to focus on Classic Rewards because they are much better value. Please don't wish that away.

Yeah, fully dynamic pricing would probably stop most average people from complaining. After all, people don't complain about award availability on Airpoints.

I hope it never happens though. From a selfish perspective, the current QFF status quo works fine for me, even though I'm aware that it doesn't work for many.

 

[williamsf1]

For me losing LAN was a big hit, because I actually visit Latin America, it really limits OWA and RTW options. Would be good if they came back or Avianca or Aerolíneas Argentinas swapped alliances.

Id like to see another EU airline too since they have lost a couple over the years.

ME airlines add zero value for me personally. I can connect to anywhere I want to go in EU via Asia, UK or US.

EU airlines? I think AB was the only real loss

They have gained AF/ KL .... way bigger combined network >>

They still have IB AY BA in Europe as well

 

[ish]

To be honest, I don’t really mind what the truth is - whether the points are really “worthless” or not, but I suspect that this increased perception might further influence Vanessa Hudson and her leadership team* to increase availability and ease of booking for classic award flights….

*assuming she, or they, are still in their jobs in the coming months.

P.s., Just need to be careful what we wish for and hope it’s not more QF ‘enhancements’

 

[Lynda2475]

They have gained AF/ KL .... way bigger combined network >>

Unfortunately they are not OW airlines, so fine if you booking shorter/cheaper redemptions but no help for OWAs which are IME the best value redemptions. So if AF or KL actually joined OW then that would be a huge plus as would come under OWA caps.

In EU OW lost Aer Lingus, Air Berlin and understandably S7 is suspended. Plus at one stage Swiss was supposed to join but pulled out.

 

[kpc]

Can you imagine the Reserve Bànk being able to print an unlimited amount of $$$, limitting what and when you can use those $$$, and then unilaterally can change how much those goods cost?!

Any similarity to the QFF program?

As a foot note, I have been able to book the following award seats using Qf pts in last 12-18 months:
Syd-Ldh in Y rtn x2
Syd-Hnd in J x2 (Plat release)
Hel-Hkg-Mel-Syd in J x1 (Plat release)
Icn-Hel in Y x1
Syd-Sgn in J x4
Syd-Jnb in F rtn x2
Syd-Kul in J rtn x2
Syd'-Adl in Y rtn x2

Has not been easy and I have been in this game for 20 odd years now and l know most of the tricks!

Apart from domestic flights, I don't think the average punter has much of a chance...

 

[Franky]

I agree; if you look at getting from Australia into continental Europe, with few exceptions, you have to go to one of their hubs on the far periphery - London or Oslo and then backtrack or deflect down into the European ports - unless you go to HKG first and then on Cathay, which is a big diversion and not really that good. Maps from Flightconnections.


View attachment 347997

The new members Oman and RAM, as well as RJ of course are handy, but still lie on the periphery.

With QR you go straight to the ME and with generally great connections, then go straight onto the European port you want, all on OW, if that's your alliance. EK does similar but not OW of course.

View attachment 347994

This is why I'm really looking forward to Turkish flying direct to Australia for *A. Fantastic soft and hard products, IST airport and a better network than QR into Europe (and just about anywhere else).

View attachment 347996

It would be interesting to see the same routes from Japan...

 

[RooFlyer]

Apart from domestic flights, I don't think the average punter has much of a chance...

Of course. The majority (?vast majority?) of QFF points are earned from credit cards, shopping etc, where Qantas have sold the points, created electronically, to the merchant. It is in Qantas' financial interest to not have them redeemed, where they have to provide a tangible service at a tangible cost. Hence make it difficult to redeem. There are carrying costs of course, but all things considered, the balance favours not having to burn fuel etc to move a points redeemer around.

It would be interesting to see the same routes from Japan...

You mean JAL to Europe?

 

[CaptJCool]

Right! And just how many CR seats have there been lately, outside of the 'we are sorry' releases. Business class. That's right. Bugger-all. So a typical search by your explanation WILL return the expensive points+pay. But WHY do they make you click the 'reward seats' filter to see cheaper reward seats Vs points+pay.

Honestly, earning QFF points with the ambition of flying international - certainly in J or F - is a mugs game. People may be happy paying and being mugs, but judging by the Senate enquiry, Qantas have managed to pi** off even more customers.

Oh, and Emirates? Sure ... go ahead and pay thousands.

the QFF Nightmare has come to pass...

I heard Ansett points could be worth something someday like never

 

[drron]

And in Europe OW also lost Malev. It went belly up the day before we were to fly BUD _ FRA. Fortunately on an AA award BNE -AMM. AA got us onto an LH service in time for us to connect to RJ to AMM.
Coming back we were switched to AY AMM - HEL -SIN.

Back to AA points. People weren't trying hard enough. I accumulated a million AA points in under 18 months in 2010. All OW flights to AA, Hire car points to AA, Hotel points to AA always as with CCs in lots of 20000 to get a 5000 bonus and back then I had a free DC which could transfer to AA at t he timeAmex I transferred to Marriott then on to AA. Didn't need to buy any when they came on sale. I valued my hotel loyalty points as much more when transferring to AA with the bonus for transfers of 20000 points than remaining as hotel points.

So I went from LTG to LTP in that time.

 

[CaptJCool]

I read 15 or so submissions (name withheld)

the biggest gripes
I spent many loyal years with you building up a points balance and now can't find J international CLASSIC reward flights (the promised land you offered was a "mirage"
Most of them understand the difference between CR and points plus pay
you cancel flights and put us on a stupid alternative

there was one really interesting one where apparentlly some travel agent had booked two flights together - didn't make any sense to me as both flights ended up in melbourne and the people concerned who were Seniors aged decided to cancel the "first" flight. I'm not sure this was QF fault

you wiped our points after 18 months during COVID - we didn't want to travel as we are aged
you don't provide enough time to get between domestic and international (Sydney, Melb and Bris) - we are aged and need extra time to "walk between"
you tell us we have to carry our own bags on the transfer as otherwise they won't make the flight and we aren't going to help you even though we can see you are nearly 80 years old - your staff have lost the plot (but of course t hey are just following your former esteemed leader)

 

[StevePER]

I note that all those listing their successful redemptions over the last several years have QF Platinum in their profile. I've pretty much given up on using QF points on anything international due to lack of availability.

But I find it funny all the QR fan boys are still QFF members, if you all prefer QR so much more why not join their FF program - then surely you would have zero issue redeeming on their flights?

Good suggestion. Since joining QR Privilege Club I've found it easy to earn status, the first class lounge in Doha is wonderful, I've had an op-up to first, I have benefits on both QF and VA, and there are still good value redemptions on domestic flights.

 

[Himeno]

Hey Qantas
Put a $ value on the FF point.

The FF point is then redeemed for $$ which is them used to purchase a seat.
No need to make the FF program complicated, and then we know when you flick a few FF points as compensation we know how much its worth

Make it transparent...Oh wait....

They won't do that.
As it stands now, every transfer of points, both in and out, have a different value.
The partners providing QFF points to their customers (eg, woolworths, banks, optus, etc) pay Qantas for those points, likely different amounts per point.
The different ways to use points by QFF members all have different values, points + pay, rewards, Qantas shop.

Putting a set overall value per point would require changes to all that, likely changing the amount of points earnt via partners (more then likely fewer points for same spend) while spend rates would likely be increased to match the $ value already used for points + pay.

 

[Matt_01]

I suspect that its been enhanced to mainly be a privilege of WP1s these days.

I am not sure if I agree with your comment as yet but may be soon swayed. Prior to covid and many years back (before I was a P1) I could get easily find x2 J seats for Mrs&MissM on a OW carrier and I was happy to pay the QF points tax to use a OW carrier or partner airline. QF only opened up D inventory to P1s around 2017/18 as prior to this we were treated the same as any other WP. Maybe QF have changed the rules and as a former P1 (status drop at Jul 23) I support any advantage any P1 may get over WP published or not. As a P1 these are the flights that QF ponied up since Jan 23:

x3 ADL-SYD-WLG (J) for the Apr 23 school holiday period (bot approved)
x3 AKL-SYD-ADL (J) for the Apr 23 school holiday period (manual review)
x3 ADL-SYD-HND (J) for the Apr 24 school holiday period (manual review)
x3 ICN-SYD-ADL (J) for the Apr 24 school holiday period (manual review)
x1 SIN-SYD-ADL (F) (manual review)
x1 ADL-SYD-ICN (J) (manual review)
x1 HKG-MEL-ADL (J) (manual review)

The news outlets focus on Mom and Pop with 5-6 kids, cannot get J seats (rewards) and then complain they cannot go to Disneyland in School Holidays. IMHO it is all just a game and one needs to work out how it is played. Edit - I was completely surprised when QF gave me x3 seats as listed above, I was hoping for x2 at best.