Qantas Points Expiry - Warning!

[serfty]

Charity?

You've earned the points and those points should never expire. ...

If you don't like the T&C's of the program then find another ...

 

[oldies on tour]

A number of people have commented on the terms and conditions and also that we should take responsibility for monitoring our own points - I agree - however, this still does not address the fact that Qantas do not allow you to self monitor your points for the full eighteen months via their website. Someone suggested using an alternate website to record points for monitoring but I still don't see why we should have to use a "third party" site. I guess that's Qantas' prerogative to limit our access, so I guess I just have to "suck it up".

 

[ric_melb]

Whilst this change to Qantas FF Terms and Conditions wont answer all the issues people have raised it does make clear what Qantas will do and will answer some of the concerns people have expressed above.

"9.2.3 With effect from 16 March 2017, within 60 days prior to the Points expiration date, Qantas Loyalty will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:
(a) Online activity statements display a warning to the Member;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter."

 

[oz_mark]

Whilst this change to Qantas FF Terms and Conditions wont answer all the issues people have raised it does make clear what Qantas will do and will answer some of the concerns people have expressed above.

"9.2.3 With effect from 16 March 2017, within 60 days prior to the Points expiration date, Qantas Loyalty will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:
(a) Online activity statements display a warning to the Member;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter."

Well, 9.2.2, the section until 15 March, 2017 says much the same thing

9.2.2 Effective until 15 March 2017, all Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account of a non-Active Member will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member and excluding any transfer of Points from Qantas Business Rewards). For this purpose, Points earned in relation to Eligible Flights are deemed to be earned on the date the Eligible Flight was taken. Within 60 days of the Points expiration date, Qantas Loyalty will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:
(a) Online activity statements display a warning to the Member;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.

 

[JohnK]

It's hardly as self-evident as you repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly insist. You would have to expect a significant repricing for actuarial reasons if they change the rules.

Very funny.

I earn 800 points today. Don't know what they are worth.

I earn 800 points in 18 months.

I earn 800 points in another 18 months.

My points haven't expired. There haven't been any actuarial calculations to adjust my points. I now have the 2,400 points and they are valued the same as anyone's 2,400 points. They are worth something assuming there hasn't been any devaluation.

If I don't earn anymore points and there are no further devaluations why should my points be wiped without sufficient warning? Because some actuary has factored breakage into the calculation? A dishonest, blatant rip-off breakage into the calculation?

You see it is quite clear from where I am sitting that adequate warnings are a must for any business. You don't have to agree.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Can I just make a point though, how many of you colleagues amass the millions or maybe 1/2 million QFFpoints/QPoints? And just let the points sit there, till you want to make a big jump and use the points?
In my case, I collect and use them up within the 18 months timespan, but sanely thinking, don't a lot/wouldn't a lot of people have an inkling when their last QF activity is, and do something to keep their points alive?

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

And as IHG is essentially our 4th hotel program I am going to be a very base member.
Also mrsdrron got her warning email from Accor.Our number 3 program.

OT: I had about 10,000 IHG points, but gave them up without making a redemption, I am not happy that IHG has made up a new rule, stay once in a very expensive range of hotels in a 12 month period, or your points expire.
IHG used to be good that points didnt expire, but they have gone down the road of points expiry. And yes, I do realise that both Accor and PGRewards also do have time expiry. Am a current member of both these, at least they have cheaper hotels in their liaison than IHG.
Maybe its time to stop travelling and hide my $ under my mattress in my dog box!
Travelling nowadays is no fun, its so expensive, and also so onerous.

 

[RichardMEL]

OT: I had about 10,000 IHG points, but gave them up without making a redemption, I am not happy that IHG has made up a new rule, stay once in a very expensive range of hotels in a 12 month period, or your points expire.
IHG used to be good that points didnt expire, but they have gone down the road of points expiry. And yes, I do realise that both Accor and PGRewards also do have time expiry. Am a current member of both these, at least they have cheaper hotels in their liaison than IHG.
Maybe its time to stop travelling and hide my $ under my mattress in my dog box!
Travelling nowadays is no fun, its so expensive, and also so onerous.

Yes, but the point (pun intended) is that you were warned. IHG sent an email and even had a pop up on the app I think about the change. Half the discussion in this thread is about QF not being up front on expiring points (yet the posts saying the newsletter has had a note in there seem to contradict that to some extent).

My own feelings on the whole warnings of expiring points are two fold:

1. Yes, QF (since that is the focus of this forum and this thread) should have it more clear, as they used to, both on your website summary and email updates - it's not hard given they give you your current balance etc and they absolutely used to show expiry dates). So yes, QF took that away. If I was super cynical I would say it's deliberate but I'm only partially cynical so I won't

2. By the same token, there should be limits on how much "hand holding" people want. I mean if QF do put a note in the monthly newsletter saying your points will expire and you don't read it - is that QF's fault? Do you want 20 emails reminding you? A phone call? (yes I am being over the top here). My point being that spoon feeding happens at primary and secondary school. In the adult world, not so much. By all means, inform us, and give us the tools(which QF is lacking in) but I personally feel we don't need to be reminded all the time oh your points are going away. As responsible adults we should be aware of such things.

Remember all these loyalty programs are NOT there for our benefit, they are there for theirs. Again, super cynical me would suggest QF would be more than happy to have the points go as it lessens their liability and they have no incentive to want you to keep them indefinitely because of that. Further, having them expire is incentive to YOU to keep activity going - all activity is worth revenue to them (except for spending of points). .. so again, that's a bonus for them and most likely money.

Finally people who are active will never have this be an issue because if you have a linked CC, or use something like EDR.. er.. woolworths rewards, or are signed to assure, or any of the rest of partners just a single spend a month, or every 3 or 6 will keep you active. It's not hard. And if you're NOT doing any of this, chances are you probably don't have a huge balance, or if you do you probably don't care about it that much.

I think 99% of AFFers would be savvy and/or interested enough to ensure they keep their loyalty programs active - be it QF, hotels, car rental, whatever... and if they don't, like Pooch with IHG, then it's not worth enough to them to keep and that's fine.. it's a choice.

And yes, I am very aware that there are situations where one cannot fly or stay at hotels or whatever (for example, pregnancy/new family, change in jobs/financial circumstances, illness etc).. I myself did not fly for several years due to medical stuff... but I still kept my QFF, UA and other accounts I deemed important to be active through things like a yearly sped, or the QFF toolbar(when it was around) or similar.

Summary: QF could be far more transparent about this absolutely, but consumers need to also be aware and responsible.

(and IHG have plenty of cheap properties. Heck I stayed at the Melbourne HI for $115 and was upgraded to a suite. If that's too expensive for you, let alone they are not too bad in asia and parts of the US, and even the AKL airport HI can have reasonably cheap rates at the right time... I've even had a $130ish rate at the Adelaide CP which in your home. IHG are among the cheaper, for their mid range properties anyway, of the big chains IMHO, but everyone's mileage will vary).

 

[drron]

The problem with both QF and VA their regular emails are not received by everyone for some reason so no warning given.
As well the warning is not prominent and hidden amongst the other info.
Email notification really should be in a separate email with a header that says something like-Your points will expire.just as the hotel chains do.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

The problem with both QF and VA their regular emails are not received by everyone for some reason so no warning given.
As well the warning is not prominent and hidden amongst the other info.
Email notification really should be in a separate email with a header that says something like-Your points will expire.just as the hotel chains do.

Both Velocity and QFF will have members who are highly engaged, and open emails within minutes of receiving them.
Then there are other members who, like the majority of the population, read the subject line and bin the email. After all, most of the email sent by both programs is garbage. This is conditioning members not to open emails, and as such, the unengaged segment of the database is much less likely to open emails than the average member. This is the same member segment who are also most likely to have points expiring on the near horizon.

With this in mind, IMO - it is unfair to these members who don't open or read VA/QF email when the points expiration notice is buried somewhere in an otherwise junk email.

Professionally speaking, there are more than enough statistics around from other loyalty programs which prove this behavior of not providing adequate notice by warning to a member has an adverse revenue effect on the program.

 

[RichardMEL]

Both Velocity and QFF will have members who are highly engaged, and open emails within minutes of receiving them.
Then there are other members who, like the majority of the population, read the subject line and bin the email. After all, most of the email sent by both programs is garbage. This is conditioning members not to open emails, and as such, the unengaged segment of the database is much less likely to open emails than the average member. This is the same member segment who are also most likely to have points expiring on the near horizon.

With this in mind, IMO - it is unfair to these members who don't open or read VA/QF email when the points expiration notice is buried somewhere in an otherwise junk email.

Professionally speaking, there are more than enough statistics around from other loyalty programs which prove this behavior of not providing adequate notice by warning to a member has an adverse revenue effect on the program.

Understood.. but technically they ARE informing the member in writing if they send the email. That would be their excuse anyway in response to complaints

Are you suggesting they should send an email explicitly "Your points will expire soon" as many other programs do? Yep, sure... agreed. even then though there could be people who don't read it (or heck even don't receive it for one reason or another.. gone into junk email, wrong email address, etc).. then what?

Maybe I'm thinking there will always be people who, no matter WHAT steps one takes to inform them they will ignore it or whatever but then jump up and down once the points expire. That sort of thing frustrates me.

However it also irritates me that QF would bury the information in a regular email and take this info out of the member login page and/or app. it's easy to do and the only reason NOT to do it is to attempt to create breakage.

In a way you'd think it's the sort of thing motivated parties might take to Fair Trading or similar on the basis of non disclosure (which of course QF would dismiss under the basis of the T&C and "we informed you in monthly newsletter. if you didn't bother to read it it's not our fault"). (playing devil's advocate)

So c'mon QF be more clear.

 

[serfty]

...
In a way you'd think it's the sort of thing motivated parties might take to Fair Trading or similar on the basis of non disclosure ...

I suspect such has indeed happened in the past which has led QFF to having an obscure "reengagement" process, used for "emergencies":

"Break Glass and push button in case of pissed off motivated party."

 

[JohnK]

If you don't like the T&C's of the program then find another ...

Why? I play by their rules but doesn't mean I have to agree with them or stop criticising them....

 

[Pushka]

Its like when gift cards have an expiry date. Why? The money has been paid.

 

[RichardMEL]

Its like when gift cards have an expiry date. Why? The money has been paid.

I suspect the reasons are twofold...

like QF and other programs -

- liability on the books.. if you can clear it one way or another within a year then that is good (for the company)
- incentive to use/purchase and say your gift card is for $50 but the item is $80 then hey more revenue

(and bonus that it will likely ensure a certain level of spillage/breakage of some who just forget, lose the card or whatever.. and basically that's bonus revenue) - I suspect one's views of the ethics of this will vary for each person's perspective.

this doesn't mean I personally agree with it. I tend to think it SHOULD be like cash. The cash in your wallet/purse doesn't magically disappear on a specific date (insert jokes here) or anything like that. and yeah if you or someone pays for a gift card, QF voucher, "pay for" (earn) points then they shouldn't expire... but well hey at the end of the day all these private companies can do what they like in this respect, unless it's made unlawful of course.

And to those programs (eg IHG) that had points not expire at all for years, clearly they were willing to wear that liability

 

[serfty]

Why? I play by their rules but doesn't mean I have to agree with them or stop criticising them....

Then stop posting in absolutes; be equivocal.

Your statement "You've earned the points and those points should never expire." to me has the emphatic implication you don't agree with the program - being so emphatic then I am led to wonder why you continue to be a member of said program.

OK, I believe there are very few frequent flyer based loyalty programs that don't have expiry clauses and none are oz based,so my post was a bit loaded.

So, what I do is burn those points/miles on travel - over 2,000,000 in the last 10 years...

 

[oz_mark]

this doesn't mean I personally agree with it. I tend to think it SHOULD be like cash. The cash in your wallet/purse doesn't magically disappear on a specific date (insert jokes here) or anything like that. and yeah if you or someone pays for a gift card, QF voucher, "pay for" (earn) points then they shouldn't expire... but well hey at the end of the day all these private companies can do what they like in this respect, unless it's made unlawful of course.

And to those programs (eg IHG) that had points not expire at all for years, clearly they were willing to wear that liability

Do bank cheques go stale?

Reasons for expiraty dates on gift vouchers:

1) To deal with liabilities that would other just build up over time
2) Most vouchers are redeemed within 3 months anyway.
3) Breakage helps fund the operation of the system
4) So new systems don't have to support legacy voucher systems forever and a day. What does a gift certificate from 10 or 15 years ago look like? How would you process it?

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Are you suggesting they should send an email explicitly "Your points will expire soon" as many other programs do? Yep, sure... agreed. even then though there could be people who don't read it (or heck even don't receive it for one reason or another.. gone into junk email, wrong email address, etc).. then what?

Maybe I'm thinking there will always be people who, no matter WHAT steps one takes to inform them they will ignore it or whatever but then jump up and down once the points expire. That sort of thing frustrates me.

However it also irritates me that QF would bury the information in a regular email and take this info out of the member login page and/or app. it's easy to do and the only reason NOT to do it is to attempt to create breakage.

In a way you'd think it's the sort of thing motivated parties might take to Fair Trading or similar on the basis of non disclosure (which of course QF would dismiss under the basis of the T&C and "we informed you in monthly newsletter. if you didn't bother to read it it's not our fault"). (playing devil's advocate).

Every member is unique in the way they read/don't read emails.
Heck - my dad reads emails MAYBE once every few months.

Their current set-up is akin to the following scenario:

Every week you receive an advertisement from Coles in the mail. It has a few specials and the occasional double tim-tam deal. You read it occasionally to see what's happening, but most of the time you see it in the mailbox, and it's straight to the trash before you think twice.
One day in the weekly Coles advertisement, a few lines is stating 'If you don't shop with us in the next 30 days, we don't want you back ever again'.

The garbage Qantas puts into their emails is training members NOT to open their email. It's almost as if they're using a CRM which can't draw in personalised spiel, offers or something of value to that particular member, which would improve open/click and engagement rates.

So sure, it's buried in the email somewhere to comply with legal.

The biggest problem is that Qantas Loyalty generates higher ARPU than all other airline programs, and breakage is a line item in the revenue models. Opportunity cost, member re-activation cost, the share of wallet loss and churn are clearly not important to QFF at this time. It's not right or wrong, but from a member perspective, the process could certainly be improved.

 

[JohnK]

Then stop posting in absolutes; be equivocal.

Your statement "You've earned the points and those points should never expire." to me has the emphatic implication you don't agree with the program - being so emphatic then I am led to wonder why you continue to be a member of said program.

The 2 can co exist. I can be a member of a program and constantly criticise the same program.

OK, I believe there are very few frequent flyer based loyalty programs that don't have expiry clauses and none are oz based,so my post was a bit loaded.

So, what I do is burn those points/miles on travel - over 2,000,000 in the last 10 years...

I have burned quite a few as well and have more waiting to be burned. Just waiting for right time and hope it is not too late.

I don't understand, nor agree, with points expiry. Not a good look on a company and even worse when they use dirty tactics for points to expire.

 

[Matt_01]

Can I just make a point though, how many of you colleagues amass the millions or maybe 1/2 million QFFpoints/QPoints? And just let the points sit there, till you want to make a big jump and use the points?
In my case, I collect and use them up within the 18 months timespan, but sanely thinking, don't a lot/wouldn't a lot of people have an inkling when their last QF activity is, and do something to keep their points alive?

I for one hoard and amass points and then use them for large scale redemptions. I have redeemed just shy or 1.7M in the past 12 months and still have about 1.3M and growing. Personally for domestic travel (and would include going across the ditch, yes I know it is OS) I would not bother to use points for flight redemptions or upgrades on a 737 product, to me the value is not there. 332 J to PER would be the exception if the need arose. I would much rather use my points for international J redemptions or J-F upgrade.

What I have found interesting is the back and forth about QF needing to inform you that your points are expiring. Points only expire after 18 months of continuous account inactivity not 18 months after you earn them (unless it was a 1 off flight or earning activity). For those who may not be avid point collectors, hoarders or have looked into the QFF program it is not just about flying, QFF is a business. IMO if you do not review something you have earnt and an entitlement to redeem for 18 months maybe you do not actually value them.

I have recently added an entry in my calendar for 15 months’ time to warn me to check my points as it's possible I'll not have flown in that time and would hate to lose my hard earned points.

At least you have been proactive setting a reminder 15 months out, when you log on and if see no activity I would assume you will do something about it rather than see a post in 15 months’ time stating QF do not display my activity over 12 months old’. If you cannot see activity for 12 months obviously time to do something about it. BTW this is not a dig at you, I thought your comment you will “not have flown in that time” was a just a good led into – how easy it can be to keep points active with almost no effort and without stepping foot onto plane.

A little bit of proactivity will reduce any risk of expiring points, within the market place it seems that QFF points can be earned for all most anything, as I previously posted these are just some examples to keep your account active:

• Linking a QFF points earning credit card to your account - monthly transfer without thinking about it.
• Buy something off ebay/ DJ’s, Apple or any one of the other stores listed via Qantas, just remember to log in via Qantas points. This does not just keep your account alive but also increases you overall balance. Off topic but as an example last week I needed to purchase a new iphone, rather than just go to the nearest retailer or Apple Center, logged on through QF site ordered from Apple (2 points per dollar) paid with a 1.5point earning CC, select pick up in store, 30 minutes later order was ready for collection. So for 5 minutes’ effort pocketed 3800 QFF points for something I was going to purchase any way.
• Book a restaurant via the Qantas Sites.
• Woolworth rewards – I would take a transfer of a few points rather than get $10.00 a shop, but each to their own.

If you have a quick look at how to earn points on the QF website I would suggest that there would not be too many account holders, apart from minors (maybe) who could not earn at least 1 point within an 18 period and remove the worry of points expiring whether it be 1, 10’s or 100’s of thousands.

From what I understand QFF is a highly profitable business. They make it easy to earn and maybe could be a bit better at informing those who do not monitor their accounts, however when you signed up for QFF either paying a fee or for free you do have to agree to the T’s and C’s.

Just my 2 cents worth.