Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[jb747]

I wonder how much effect the increasingly ludicrous taxes charged by the UK government will have? They seem almost specifically targeted at QF ULR ops. Perhaps leave London to the 380, and use the 350 to Paris, Rome, Frankfurt, Chicago, NY.

 

[Melburnian1]

Well if QF fly direct to CDG or FRA it will allow for quicker and less expensive connections into Europe (including rail) than going via LHR due to the LHR tax. And these direct flights will appeal to those not prepared to consider transit via the ME.

I do not think that introducing SYD-LHR will mean that SYD-SIN-LHR ceases to operate, the capacity of the new direct flight is lower than an A380 via SIN, but maybe the SIN route will change to a Dreamliner.

By 'LHR' tax do you mean Air Passenger Duty? That only applies outbound from airports like Heathrow.

If you mean 'higher passenger processing charges than European airports', I haven't noticed this. Flying into London and out from a Euro city can be a very good strategy, including using rail in between: a lot more comfortable and enjoyable than flying intra-Europe or UK-Europe. (But this is air travel on non-QF).

I love open jaw fares.

 

[drron]

So what has happened to that old AFF slogan-Why go direct when you can connect.
We do live in a changed world.

 

[encryptededdy]

So what has happened to that old AFF slogan-Why go direct when you can connect.
We do live in a changed world.

Well, to my knowledge it never worked for QF1/2 anyway since you only got one dose of status credits

 

[dajop]

I wonder how much effect the increasingly ludicrous taxes charged by the UK government will have? They seem almost specifically targeted at QF ULR ops. Perhaps leave London to the 380, and use the 350 to Paris, Rome, Frankfurt, Chicago, NY.

The tax (APD) is significant and noticeable when it comes to award bookings, but on commercial fares it is barely a factor. Also, it applies based on the distance of the final destination on a ticket basis, not an individual flight basis. So someone travelling on the A380 via SIN will pay the APD as someone on a non stop service to SYD, which will be the same as someone travelling LHR-CDG-SIN-SYD or LHR-DXB-SYD, and in fact this is the same even for those ending their journey in SIN. The new classification of ULH is for journeys that are >5500 miles. SIN, BKK, HKG all fall into this category. Of course, if you had LHR-CDG on one booking, and CDG-SIN-SYD on another, you do avoid the APD.

People already hop across to the continent for award bookings, which the reduced APD is a driver. And other go to the continent to access cheaper fares, but the APD isn't really the driver for this, usually the difference in base fare is the driver - plenty of reports on FT of people taking a BA flight to somewhere in Europe (ARN seems popular) to get back onto a BA flight to LHR to connect to elsewhere, as the fare xx_-LHR-YYY return is half the price of LHR-YYY return.

 

[drron]

Well, to my knowledge it never worked for QF1/2 anyway since you only got one dose of status credits

The last time I flew QF1 was 1995. Medical incident on board so I ended up spending the time not in my J seat but in Y next to the LOL who had a stroke. Reward 1 bottle of wine and 1 QF plane model for my son. Not even a thank you letter from QF.
Besides if you are on the 1 flight number throughout the flight that is the AFF definition of a direct flight.

 

[Flying Fox]

I'm still in shock that the NSW Govt gave QF $50M to keep HQ in Sydney.

Well played AJ.

 

[kelvedon]

The tax (APD) is significant and noticeable when it comes to award bookings, but on commercial fares it is barely a factor. Also, it applies based on the distance of the final destination on a ticket basis, not an individual flight basis. So someone travelling on the A380 via SIN will pay the APD as someone on a non stop service to SYD, which will be the same as someone travelling LHR-CDG-SIN-SYD or LHR-DXB-SYD, and in fact this is the same even for those ending their journey in SIN. The new classification of ULH is for journeys that are >5500 miles. SIN, BKK, HKG all fall into this category. Of course, if you had LHR-CDG on one booking, and CDG-SIN-SYD on another, you do avoid the APD.

People already hop across to the continent for award bookings, which the reduced APD is a driver. And other go to the continent to access cheaper fares, but the APD isn't really the driver for this, usually the difference in base fare is the driver - plenty of reports on FT of people taking a BA flight to somewhere in Europe (ARN seems popular) to get back onto a BA flight to LHR to connect to elsewhere, as the fare xx_-LHR-YYY return is half the price of LHR-YYY return.

There are currently 2 bands for APD. Less than 2000 miles, greater than 2000 miles. In addition these bands are subdivided into “reduced” for Seats with less than 40” pitch and “standard” for seats with a pitch greater than 40”.
There is a third tier for aircraft with a weight of more than 20 tonnes but seating for less than 19 passengers, though I doubt the passengers of this last group will be bothered by the £541 slug. Think private B787 or B747.
The tax is pitched as an “environmental levy” but can be avoided if your connecting from Europe via LHR to your final destination providing your layover in LHR is less than 24 hours and is booked on one ticket.

Rates for Air Passenger Duty

Check which rates of Air Passenger Duty you need to pay if you’re a plane operator, and how to fill in your return to HMRC.

www.gov.uk

 

[dajop]

There are currently 2 bands for APD. Less than 2000 miles, greater than 2000 miles. In addition these bands are subdivided into “reduced” for Seats with less than 40” pitch and “standard” for seats with a pitch greater than 40”.

I was more considering it in context of the Project Sunrise timeframes. Next year a third band, ULH, is being introduced that prima facie seems to be targetting ULH flights, but a) most of us wouldn't consider 5500 miles ULH and b) the flight length is irrelevant - it's the ticketed journey length that counts.

UK government sets new APD rates for 2023 | Business Travel News Europe

Domestic taxes cut but new ultra-long-haul rate introduced

www.businesstravelnewseurope.com

 

[NM]

If QF considers OW connectivity important, HEL is within range.

As a stand alone destination, it would not be on their radar (pun intended), but as a OW hub?

So one could bypass SIN and go straight to HEL? That may not be the fun way to go to HEL

 

[drron]

So one could bypass SIN and go straight to HEL? That may not be the fun way to go to HEL

But I would consider it hell.

 

[Vic]

I thought leisure, seasonal flights to munich, athens and rome would be a possibility with big enough fleet. Acknowledged that frankfurt is probably more attractive than munich overall.

would munich be an option by QF from say SYD

 

[OATEK]

I thought leisure, seasonal flights to munich, athens and rome would be a possibility with big enough fleet. Acknowledged that frankfurt is probably more attractive than munich overall.

But given QF is a small airline serving a small population (no I don't mean just SYD), then aren't seasonal flights to MUC or ATH just going to take away pax from their flights to LHR, FCO and perhaps CDG/FRA?

 

[jrfsp]

But given QF is a small airline serving a small population (no I don't mean just SYD), then aren't seasonal flights to MUC or ATH just going to take away pax from their flights to LHR, FCO and perhaps CDG/FRA?

Probably not, more likely to take away from codeshare EK services.

 

[jakeseven7]

I thought leisure, seasonal flights to munich, athens and rome would be a possibility with big enough fleet. Acknowledged that frankfurt is probably more attractive than munich overall.

Athens is an interesting one. Seasonal from MEL perhaps? Couple of times a week?

 

[Vic]

But given QF is a small airline serving a small population (no I don't mean just SYD), then aren't seasonal flights to MUC or ATH just going to take away pax from their flights to LHR, FCO and perhaps CDG/FRA?

Yeah, good question. I don't know.
My upcoming trip to Germany, I specifically wasn't interested in qantas because that would require going to London and backtracking. Qatar won because they gave good one stop options to my arrival destination (Berlin) and from my departure point.

I considered Frankfurt, munich and Paris for arrival (emirates), but much like london, the added bit to Berlin was not attractive. Yes, agreed I might be an unusual traveller.

I guess if we accept the proposition that Qantas are targeting pax for these flights who fly Qantas, because "Qantas"; Then yes, you'd expect they'd risk taking pax from london.
Flying to Rome wouldn't take pax from the FCO flights
Munich versus paris/frankfurt is marginal given the excellent train connections.
So really only Athens...

 

[jakeseven7]

I guess if we accept the proposition that Qantas are targeting pax for these flights who fly Qantas, because "Qantas";

They are targetting premium paying self funded /premium paying business people who will fly it because no fluffing around with stopovers, faster, more efficient. Not AFF members who dissect every granule of information like us

We will be putting 30 or so pax in J a month on the New York direct one, even if it is 20% more expensive than a stop in LAX. I know that's small fry for QF really, but I know other businesses will be doing the same.

 

[Vic]

They are targetting premium paying self funded /premium paying business people who will fly it because no fluffing around with stopovers, faster, more efficient. Not AFF members who dissect every granule of information like us

We will be putting 30 or so pax in J a month on the New York direct one, even if it is 20% more expensive than a stop in LAX. I know that's small fry for QF really, but I know other businesses will be doing the same.

That's precisely why I'm flying Qatar to Berlin, I didn't want to F#$% around. My flights are in business class, which makes transiting slightly more bearable, I just didn't want to do it.

 

[Berlin]

That's precisely why I'm flying Qatar to Berlin, I didn't want to F#$% around. My flights are in business class, which makes transiting slightly more bearable, I just didn't want to do it.

Yea, that Qatar flight into Berlin is one of my favourites also. If I go to Frankfurt or Munich (which is both close to where I have family), then flight options suddenly open up massively. Like you, I'll try and avoid LHR like the plague.

Flying EK to/from Hamburg is another decent option for Berlin as it's really "around the corner" in the scheme of things, whether by train or by car. But if they're priced similar (and even more so if you can get a Suite ex AUS), then of course Qatar is probably the easiest for BER.

 

[jakeseven7]

That's precisely why I'm flying Qatar to Berlin, I didn't want to F#$% around.

Totally - yup and that is precisely the attitude of real 'air' warriors.

As an aside but related I've noticed a massive change in the demo of AFF over the years (edit: pre-covid), we used to have a lot more people on here flying who were real business high flyers in both senses of the phrase and sharing their experiences which I quite enjoyed.

I feel its now more about earning 135 points at BP, and complaining complaining complaining about anything, like lounge attendant not smiling quickly enough - something that most of the business crowd would laugh at and not even care about ;-)

I think this thread is symptomatic of that change in demographics on here judging from the responses we get. Its really clear who they are targeting for these flights! Well for us anyway