Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[levelnine]

As an aside but related I've noticed a massive change in the demo of AFF over the years, we used to have a lot more people on here flying who were real business high flyers in both senses of the phrase and sharing their experiences which I quite enjoyed.

This is going off topic, but that's because corporate travel has dropped off a cliff: Are business trips a thing of the past? | DW | 04.04.2022

It's mostly leisure travel now. And people spent the last two years accumulating masses of frequent flyer points with no where to use them, which explains the almost daily posts from newbies trying to work out how to use them — demand for redemptions is far exceeding supply.

 

[jakeseven7]

This is going off topic, but that's because corporate travel has dropped off a cliff:

No, it was well before covid hit (which I didn't mention to be fair).

But doesn't matter really I guess, things change! Off to read how someone earned 33 points at 7-11 eating donuts

 

[Must...Fly!]

Off to read how someone earned 33 points at 7-11 eating donuts

4 points per $1 coffee for the last month has been a boon to the Velocity account

 

[dajop]

and complaining complaining complaining about anything, like lounge attendant not smiling quickly enough - something that most of the business crowd would laugh at and not even care about ;-)

Not helped by the bloggerati, for most of whom "business travel" is basically just reviewing lounges and flights, and always have plenty of complaints as well.

 

[jakeseven7]

Not helped by the bloggerati, for most of whom "business travel" is basically just reviewing lounges and flights, and always have plenty of complaints as well.

Theres plenty of complaints and whining on here as well, just a bit wistful of 'the old days' where we some of our high-flyers who had great insight to share and it was a more interesting place (IMHO), many have just gone very quiet, even though I know they are travelling heaps. Clearly the 'complete a survey and get 50 points thread' isn't that interesting to them

Anyway maybe this thread will draw them out, because it is actually really exciting news for us business travellers! (minus the usual whingers). Direct flights to premium heavy corporate heavy cities will be well utilised.

I wonder how long QF will have this space to themselves?

 

[justinbrett]

Totally - yup and that is precisely the attitude of real 'air' warriors.

As an aside but related I've noticed a massive change in the demo of AFF over the years, we used to have a lot more people on here flying who were real business high flyers in both senses of the phrase and sharing their experiences which I quite enjoyed.

I feel its now more about earning 135 points at BP, and complaining complaining complaining about anything, like lounge attendant not smiling quickly enough - something that most of the business crowd would laugh at and not even care about ;-)

I think this thread is symptomatic of that change in demographics on here judging from the responses we get. Its really clear who they are targeting for these flights! Well for us anyway

I agree - AFF does seem to have changed from pre-covid. Compared to "that other forum", which I don't use often - it's chalk & cheese.

I'm excited for any new route, any new aircraft. Flying to London direct has always been a dream - I remember my late grandfather who was a QF 707 pilot tell me about the 747-400ER delivery that flew LHR-SYD non stop, me as a young boy was absolutely fascinated by that - and now I have the prospect of flying it as a pax.

 

[RichardMEL]

OT but .... Just on HEL - it's too far north, and a tiny O&D market to be useful (just ignoring the current restrictions due to the war). While AY offers a heap of connections out of there, and HEL is a delight to transit the real problem for mine is that if you want to go to most Western european destinations, then LHR (as difficult as it can be) would probably still be slightly better to connect.. I mean HEL-LHR itself is a 3 hour flight in itself - so you're looking at 2-2.5+ hours to France/Germany/AMS etc, and more to more southerly locations such as Italy, Spain, Portugal etc.

Now HEL is fantastic if you're headed to Scandinavia or central/eastern Europe/Russia etc, but probably the actual traffic/demand would be very small, and going via CDG or LHR would still be reasonably acceptable (or go via the ME on codeshares - specially for southern europe).

While HEL is a great hub, it's location is problematic.

It's one reason why AY fares have been so brilliant ex-AU for so long for those willing to take that slight detour of a few hours that it provides for very good value and AY price that way because they know they won't get the premium J who want to go to the main euro cities but they will grab more leisure J pax, and those going to more east locations. Personally I've flown AY on such fares to LHR (and bonus being a widebody usually on HEL-LHR too, which makes it great) but found them pretty good when I flew from BUD-HEL-HKG-MEL and it was a great fare, and was not much more time wise than going say BUD-LHR-(DXB/SIN)-MEL (this was back when QF was flying to DXB.

 

[RooFlyer]

That's precisely why I'm flying Qatar to Berlin, I didn't want to F#$% around.

Totally - yup and that is precisely the attitude of real 'air' warriors.

Not all - I reckon I was a real 'air' warrior for at least 3 years - QF Plat (pre P1) , Air Canada '100K Elite' (~P1 eqiv) and VA Gold each year and arguably for 3 more years , shuttling in J between Hobart and Calgary 3 weeks on, 1 week off for half each year, but not going direct, when I could connect. Circle Pacific fare was my favourite - a few days in HKG or TYO or SFO every time. Being self employed and having a dream client who let me book my own flights with their TA, helped . When I worked for a global invesment bank, going Sydney to Paris pretty regularly, I can assure you it wasn't necessarily without a bit of R & R on the way back. eg Thailand ....

I agree - AFF does seem to have changed from pre-covid. Compared to "that other forum", which I don't use often - it's chalk & cheese.

Yes, 'everything' has changed with Covid. But we are now seeing the resumption of 'proper' trip reports and questions about connections, lounges, fares etc on AFF. Soon be back in the groove. I think 'business' will forget about the Zoom meeting thing sooner rather than later - bosses like flying up the pointy end as much as the underlings, and travel policy has to be fair for all!!

 

[dajop]

Anyway maybe this thread will draw them out, because it is actually really exciting news for us business travellers! (minus the usual whingers). Direct flights to premium heavy corporate heavy cities will be well utilised.

I wonder how long QF will have this space to themselves?

In a global scale SQ pioneered the concept although their routes are 500 miles and 1000 miles shorter than SYD-JFK/LHR respectively, so I guess same space but different market. But the big difference with the QF ULH flights will be that they need to be bi-direction. SQ heads to New York in an easterly and continues easterly (or sometimes over the north pole, pre-Russia airspace closure), taking advantage of meteorological conditions. QF have to do a westerly service as well.

But agree totally it is great for business travellers - in the past I did the SQ ULH service multiple times, and IMHO best way to get between Singapore and New York (other than on Suites, but my employer ain't paying for that). Heck, I even did the trip for leisure (although, strictly wasn't non stop, as I had to start that journey in RGN ). I don't see it will be any different for business travellers between Sydney and New York or London.

These services allow much better management of the overall flight journey, compared to being forced to wake up and drag yourself through security and sit in yet another lounge, just to get back to the exact same piece of 3 dimensional space you were in 3 hours ago, when you could have been sleeping the whole time.

 

[justinbrett]

In a global scale SQ pioneered the concept although their routes are 500 miles and 1000 miles shorter than SYD-JFK/respectively, so I guess same space but different market. But the big difference with the QF ULH flights will be that they need to be bi-direction. SQ heads to New York in an easterly and continues easterly (or sometimes over the poles, pre-Russia airspace closure), taking advantage of meteorological conditions. QF have to do a westerly service as well.

But agree totally it is great for business travellers - in the psat I did the SQ ULH service multiple times, and IMHO best way to get between Singapore and New York (other than on Suites, but my employer ain't paying for that). Heck, I even did the trip for leisure (although, strictly wasn't non stop, as I had to start that journey in RGN ). I don't see it will be any different for business travellers between Sydney and New York or London.

These services allow much better management of the overall flight journey, compared to being forced to wake up and drag yourself through security and sit in yet another lounge, just to get back to the exact same piece of 3 dimensional space you were in 3 hours ago, when you could have been sleeping the whole time.

I was actually thinking watching a review on SQ's EWR-SIN, with no F or Y, they'll be looking at the hard product QF is getting and will have to order some, which is objectively far more suitable for that route.

 

[madrooster]

Does anyone know if say, a pax got ticketed on Qantas paper SYD-HEL connecting HEL- <any European port> on AY, would Qantas get some part of the AY fare?

It's not as simple as sectorisation of the fare and it would depend on the fare pro-ration as well, eg. QF might eat the AY short haul connection cost, or pass it on.

 

[docjames]

I would not put MAD in the same league as HEL. Lots of traffic to Spain and Portugal - not to mention the islands, and all accessible via high speed rail from MAD, or connecting flight.

I doubt you'll see more than 3-4 European cities. Just because they can fly there doesn't mean they will (just look at the US market - plenty of cities they could be serving but they don't).

Not that I think MAD will happen any time soon but would the 787 be capable departing in summer given altitude at MAD? Would weight restrictions be too prohibitive?

MAD is also fractionally further than LHR ex-SYD or PER.

 

[jb747]

I remember my late grandfather who was a QF 707 pilot tell me about the 747-400ER delivery that flew LHR-SYD non stop, me as a young boy was absolutely fascinated by that - and now I have the prospect of flying it as a pax.

That's the aircraft that is now at HARS - Albion Park. OJA. I flew with Dave Massey-Greene (who was the actual Captain of that flight) a number of times. It took a lot of planning, a special high density fuel, and in preview of the current issues, they left the luggage behind.

 

[NM]

That's the aircraft that is now at HARS - Albion Park. OJA. I flew with Dave Massey-Greene (who was the actual Captain of that flight) a number of times. It took a lot of planning, a special high density fuel, and in preview of the current issues, they left the luggage behind.

And issued everyone on board a bunch of five helium balloons to carry for the journey

 

[Vic]

Totally - yup and that is precisely the attitude of real 'air' warriors.

As an aside but related I've noticed a massive change in the demo of AFF over the years (edit: pre-covid), we used to have a lot more people on here flying who were real business high flyers in both senses of the phrase and sharing their experiences which I quite enjoyed.

I feel its now more about earning 135 points at BP, and complaining complaining complaining about anything, like lounge attendant not smiling quickly enough - something that most of the business crowd would laugh at and not even care about ;-)

I think this thread is symptomatic of that change in demographics on here judging from the responses we get. Its really clear who they are targeting for these flights! Well for us anyway

I can't say I have enough knowledge of things/ people around here to comment. Don't get me wrong, either, I like a status credit as much as anyone. Just I have the benefit to fly enough that I don't need to go out of my way to earn them. One covid realisation for me is that my virgin and qantas platinum status may not be sustainable. I'd accepted that one or other was going to be dropped. Maybe some of what you're observing is because people realise the party is going to end soon. No more status extensions, and business has been transformed by the technology leap during covid - more online meetings (which are utter rubbish but they're here to stay).

I'm lucky my past flying means I'm now in a position where I fly less, and I can afford business...

 

[Vic]

Yea, that Qatar flight into Berlin is one of my favourites also. If I go to Frankfurt or Munich (which is both close to where I have family), then flight options suddenly open up massively. Like you, I'll try and avoid LHR like the plague.

Flying EK to/from Hamburg is another decent option for Berlin as it's really "around the corner" in the scheme of things, whether by train or by car. But if they're priced similar (and even more so if you can get a Suite ex AUS), then of course Qatar is probably the easiest for BER.

Having thought about my post a bit more, I think you've really hit the nail on the head about where Qantas ULH is trying to compete. Look at all these middle east hub options (and singapore to an extent) to land just about anywhere you want to go in Europe, or very nearby.
It seems to me ULH is partially about Qantas being at the end of the route not in the middle, and wanting to not deal with that hub.
Sure business focus has got to be the thing to start. But I just really hope they look at getting back pax from the hubs by adding destinations as they get more aircraft.

 

[JohnK]

A350:


40% to premium implies the economy cabin will still be quite large. Those will be some long flights in whY.

40% is 95 premium seats which leaves 143 economy seats or 15 rows of 3-3-3 seats in economy.

Good luck to anyone that wants to endure ultra long haul in a cramped economy cabin.

SYD-LAX or even something like LHR-HKG was too long in cramped economy cabins. I'd look for options with stopovers to break up the trip.

 

[Berlin]

SYD-LAX or even something like LHR-HKG was too long in cramped economy cabins. I'd look for options with stopovers to break up the trip.

Totally agree, my idea oh hell in the skies. I'd look for options like affordable Business or Premium Y fares at least. Even breaking up doesn't do it for me anymore in Economy.

 

[justinbrett]

40% is 95 premium seats which leaves 143 economy seats or 15 rows of 3-3-3 seats in economy.

Good luck to anyone that wants to endure ultra long haul in a cramped economy cabin.

SYD-LAX or even something like LHR-HKG was too long in cramped economy cabins. I'd look for options with stopovers to break up the trip.

I agree but only if the stopovers are overnight.

If having a 2 hour stop in an airport is going to cost me an extra 2 hours flying time (in addition to the stop time), no - I'd rather go direct. The only thing worse than a 20 hour flight in Y is a 14 hour flight in Y immediately after an 8 hour flight.

Overnight stopovers however earn their merit by letting you get some sleep and ease you into the new time zone.

 

[Flying Fox]

That's the aircraft that is now at HARS - Albion Park. OJA. I flew with Dave Massey-Greene (who was the actual Captain of that flight) a number of times. It took a lot of planning, a special high density fuel, and in preview of the current issues, they left the luggage behind.

What is Special High Density Fuel?

How is it made?