Qantas Revenue booking cancellations (under covid19)

[Pushka]

If it gets that far with me, I'll be looking to do some chargebacks on the credit card.

Insurance. It will be easier and shares the pain.

Post automatically merged: Mar 19, 2020

I think we need to understand the distinction between voluntary cancellations and cancellations by the airline.

The airline would like everyone to voluntarily cancel and get a voucher. This voucher comes with potentially huge profits down the track for the airline when fares will be sky-high, and you need to purchase a fare of equal or higher value than the original.

If you wait, Qantas will likely cancel the flight anyway, and then you're entitled to a refund.

Is the flight 'outside QF's control'? Those provisions have generally been applied to 'day of travel' cancellations - or at least cancellations that occur close-in to departure time.

In the case of corona, the airline is making a commercial decision to cancel flights in light of government restrictions. There is actually little or no restriction in Qantas operating flights, for example to New Zealand - or anywhere else. Flight crew are exempt from quarantine restrictions. But QF has made a commercial decision not to fly.

I'd argue this is 'within' QF's control. And of course they're still flying to London - probably because they have commercial incentive to do so.

If your flight is still operating (for example to London) and you no longer want to travel, the voucher *may* be a way to off-set hefty cancellation fees. If you no longer wish to travel, and there's a chance Qantas will cancel the flight anyway - I cannot see any advantage in converting to a voucher now. Wait for the cash!

Yes. Agree. It is within their control and they made a commercial decision to cancel the flight.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes. Agree. It is within their control and they made a commercial decision to cancel the flight.

I actually went back to edit that post because I was considering the wrong issue.

The distinction between a cancellation 'within' and 'outside' QF's control only affects Qf's duty of care to you. If within QF's control they provide meals and accommodation. If outside their control, they don't provide meals and accommodation (fair enough).

But in both cases, the terms and conditions say that if an acceptable alternative flight can't be arranged, the passenger is entitled to a full refund.

 

[serfty]

Important information
Disclaimer:* Delays or cancellations within our control include: engineering issues, Qantas IT system outages, delayed delivery of baggage to the carousel due to resourcing issues, late cleaning/loading of catering to the aircraft, crew/staffing issues or any other circumstance which we can reasonably control.
Delays or cancellation outside our control include: weather events, air traffic control issues, industrial action by a third party, security issues or any other unusual or unforeseen circumstances which we cannot control and the consequences of which we could not have avoided.
Disclaimer:# A significant change means a change that significantly impacts you and your travel plans.

As @MEL_Traveller points out, those clauses are only relevant to duty of care. .. it's often the case that some clauses get confused as applying to others when they do not (they wouldn't be written like that deliberately would they).

The refund clause I quoted have no caveats relating to control or not.

The distinction between a cancellation 'within' and 'outside' QF's control only affects Qf's duty of care to you. If within QF's control they provide meals and accommodation. If outside their control, they don't provide meals and accommodation (fair enough).

Compensation and Refunds Policy | Qantas

 

[flyingfan]

Cancelled a domestic award booking a few days ago. Despite the website saying the 6,000-point cancellation fee would apply (as is normally the case), got all the points back today.

 

[serfty]

Cancelled a domestic award booking a few days ago. Despite the website saying the 6,000-point cancellation fee would apply (as is normally the case), got all the points back today.

When you go to cancel a booking currently you see this:

 

[flyingfan]

The wording has changed since I cancelled. A few days ago I thought QF might still slug me the 6k points but I wasn't going to get too uppity about it.

Now that QF has extended status, I have no need to use the vouchers I'd gotten for cancelling flights - any chance I could turn them into refunds now? My year ends in Feb so I can't even use them to book status runs in my new year before they lapse.

 

[get me outta here]

After 3 1/2 hours on hold and one packet of Tim Tams later I have been able to cancel 3 reward PNRs for total refunds of all points and charges for June bookings.

Initially, I rang to preempt a schedule change on one that I had not accepted, before a later inevitable auto cancellation and a voucher would be issued. Having achieved that, I asked Ray if I could just also get refunds on the other two bookings without having to ring back in again and go on hold. He went off for another 10 minutes and got authorisation.

I have enough vouchers already and did not want any more.

I told him it was good that he at least still had a job and he said, God Willing that he would keep it. I said don’t worry as soon as this is over we will all be ringing back in again to make bookings so he was quite pleased about that.

So that takes care of all my return bookings. I still have my outward bookings with SQ and I’m waiting for the inevitable.

 

[Monya Meow Meow]

When you go to cancel a booking currently you see this:

View attachment 210223

Unfortunately I am still seeing this with my reward booking which was cancelled by Qantas/CI and changed without my consent:

 

[leaving on a jet plane]

As @MEL_Traveller points out, those clauses are only relevant to duty of care. .. it's often the case that some clauses get confused as applying to others when they do not (they wouldn't be written like that deliberately would they).

The refund clause I quoted have no caveats relating to control or not.
Compensation and Refunds Policy | Qantas

Serfty I bow to your greater knowledge of the fine details and the interpretation of the rules... But i guess it would be up to the courts... in around 3 or 5 years when they got around to hearing it and the legal profession had milked you for all your worth. I believe you could be technically right as I am not a contract lawyer but in the real world QANTAS and their legal advisers are obviously telling them to game this and present a position that they ARE entitled to only give you a voucher. After all they are doing this to however many million Australians not just me...and the implications for them if someone proves this is the Emperors Clothes moment is financially horrendous for them. They have deep pockets and much to lose so they will make the running then defend themselves to the hilt knowing they can usually divide and conquer individuals. Its why a representative body (like say Australian Frequent Flyer) or a Government body (like say the toothless ACCC) needs to take this on.
Only public questioning of the position QANTAS say is the law (as they are offering it to ticket holders) will make them back down. Mr Joyce loves brinkmanship... just look at his track record

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Serfty I bow to your greater knowledge of the fine details and the interpretation of the rules... But i guess it would be up to the courts... in around 3 or 5 years when they got around to hearing it and the legal profession had milked you for all your worth. I believe you could be technically right as I am not a contract lawyer but in the real world QANTAS and their legal advisers are obviously telling them to game this and present a position that they ARE entitled to only give you a voucher. After all they are doing this to however many million Australians not just me...and the implications for them if someone proves this is the Emperors Clothes moment is financially horrendous for them. They have deep pockets and much to lose so they will make the running then defend themselves to the hilt knowing they can usually divide and conquer individuals. Its why a representative body (like say Australian Frequent Flyer) or a Government body (like say the toothless ACCC) needs to take this on.
Only public questioning of the position QANTAS say is the law (as they are offering it to ticket holders) will make them back down. Mr Joyce loves brinkmanship... just look at his track record

No, we (the public) are quite ok with this

It's two quite separate issues - the duty of care, and a refund of the ticket. The latter is provided for in both cases, and there is no legal interpretation required (and no court cases).

Qantas has been quite creative, and clever, in its marketing of this. You will notice they say 'if you [the passenger] wish to cancel' (or words to that effect), you can receive a voucher.

This is a voluntary passenger action.

That is quite different to Qantas cancelling a flight.

If for some reason Qantas can't in future provide cash refunds due to cash reserve issues, or other financial reasons, and they have to offer a voucher, I'd expect that voucher at a minimum to guarantee the current fare paid for the ticket turned into a voucher. So if you scored a $5999 business class to London, that $5999 would have to be honoured at a later date, not he $9000 they might be asking due to increased demand.

 

[leaving on a jet plane]

No, we (the public) are quite ok with this

It's two quite separate issues - the duty of care, and a refund of the ticket. The latter is provided for in both cases, and there is no legal interpretation required (and no court cases).

Qantas has been quite creative, and clever, in its marketing of this. You will notice they say 'if you [the passenger] wish to cancel' (or words to that effect), you can receive a voucher.

This is a voluntary passenger action.

That is quite different to Qantas cancelling a flight.

If for some reason Qantas can't in future provide cash refunds due to cash reserve issues, or other financial reasons, and they have to offer a voucher, I'd expect that voucher at a minimum to guarantee the current fare paid for the ticket turned into a voucher. So if you scored a $5999 business class to London, that $5999 would have to be honoured at a later date, not he $9000 they might be asking due to increased demand.

Hi MEL. despite what I have written I for one would be quite happy to take a QANTAS voucher IF they guaranteed they would NOT use it as a cynical exercise in charging us more for the same trip THEY canceled so that we had to take it at a later date at a higher price they then charge. This is a crisis and fair is fair.. BUT they have specifically said you MUST pay the fare difference if you re book with your voucher. The simple fix is they say you can "Change date" for 12 months for no penalty....and it is that simple...so why haven't they done it? There is really only one conclusion.... They see this as a way to recoup money and they know they have the market power to crush individuals.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Their latest email to us makes the issue of refunds even more murky They say that where they are cancelling flights they will make a voucher available. And then have a small link to Aussie consumer law. They again mention events within and outside their control, but don't specifically include, or exclude, COVID-19.

If QF thinks they can exclude COVID-19 from refunds, now is the time to tell people... not shroud it in carefully crafted spin.

The email says they'll be contacting people from early next week with options... so it will be interestnig to see what those options are... they are plural! (and if it's not a credit voucher, what's left?)

 

[Lone Wolf]

Qantas will refund but you are gunna need to push hard, they are just not drawing attention to their policy:
Compensation and Refunds Policy | Qantas

---

Customers are entitled to a refund in the following situations:

Print screen the link from serfty folks.

Qantas now pointing customers to a new link which conveniently omits the clauses entitling customers to a refund.

Your rights under the Australian Consumer Law | Qantas

Your rights under the Australian Consumer Law | Qantas

www.qantas.com

 

[MEL_Traveller]

From the ACCC's page:

My flight, cruise or tour has been cancelled. Am I entitled to a refund?​

• If your travel is cancelled the ACCC expects that you will receive a refund or other remedy, such as a credit note or voucher, in most circumstances.
• However, if the event is cancelled due to government restrictions, this impacts your rights under the consumer guarantees.
• You may still be entitled to a refund under the terms and conditions of your ticket.
• You should contact the business directly to request a refund or other remedy such as a credit note or voucher.
• The ACCC encourages all businesses to treat consumers fairly in these exceptional circumstances.

So the interesting point here is the second bullet - 'you may still be entitled to a refund under the terms and conditions of your ticket'.

Now there's lots of 'information' on the Qantas site about refunds and credit vouchers... but the actual conditions of carriage are less fluffy. They simply state:

9.2 Late or Cancelled Flights (Events Beyond Our Control)​

Where we make a Significant Change to your flight due to an Event Beyond Our Control, whether you have checked in or not, we will:​

• use reasonable endeavours to rebook you on the next available flight on our services at no additional cost to you
• alternatively, if we are unable to rebook you on services acceptable to you, we will refund the applicable fare.

You may also have rights to remedies under the Australian Consumer Law.​

So I'd be arguing that COVID schedule changes, even if they are outside the airline's control, still fall under the second bullet... 'we will refund the applicable fare'.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And another thought - it may also come under 'cease to operate a route'. The conditions of carriage don't define 'discontinue' or 'cease to operate'. But in effect this is what they are doing (temporarily). So that might be another ground for a full refund.

 

[adenda]

Interested to see how my situation would be handled. We have a Oneworld Classic Reward 280K point (when we booked) trip departing 26 May. The first flight is a Qantas domestic sector from Melbourne to Adelaide followed by flights on QR to Doha and then Europe, USA and South America on a variety of Oneworld airlines. The last flight in the itinerary is also a QF domestic sector back to Melbourne.
The QF flights are still showing in our itinerary but this evening the 2 QR flights have just disappeared completely so I assume they've been cancelled. Only advice I've received is the strange Qantas email advising of a flight change and then showing the exact same details for the old and new flight. Having received a few of these since originally booking I now realise they are actually a signal that some other flight entirely has been changed.

Anyway, we've resigned ourselves to the fact that the trip won't happen so focusing now on getting our points back (all of them) plus the significant fees.

My question is: as the QF flights (being domestic) haven't been (and may not) get cancelled, could we cancel the trip and expect a refund as Qantas would not have themselves cancelled any flights. I had a look at our itinerary just now and the Cancel/Voucher button doesn't work - instead I get "Call your Qantas office" message.

Thoughts?

 

[froggerADL]

I just received an email from Qantas which includes the following:

"We are currently working through plans to ensure we have suitable options available for everyone, including providing new flight details where possible for impacted domestic customers and processing a flight credit for all other customers from early next week."

So it seems they have no intention of issuing refunds

 

[MEL_Traveller]

My question is: as the QF flights (being domestic) haven't been (and may not) get cancelled, could we cancel the trip and expect a refund as Qantas would not have themselves cancelled any flights. I had a look at our itinerary just now and the Cancel/Voucher button doesn't work - instead I get "Call your Qantas office" message.

Thoughts?

Yes - you need to consider the ticket as a whole. If any part of that ticket is disrupted and you can't be suitably accommodated, you are entitled to a refund. As this is an involuntary cancellation (by QR), you shouldn't have to pay the 6000 cancellation fee.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So it seems they have no intention of issuing refunds

On their page discussing vouchers they state that 'this is an overview' and 'may not represent all your consumer rights'.

Will be interesting to see if the ACCC investigates once all this clears. Alirlines were told to amend their practices regarding the availability of refunds only a year or so ago.

 

[Pushka]

So people who want a refund should be cancelling now and wearing the cancellation costs. Then claiming those on insurance wherever possible if overseas travel is involved.