Qantas Staff Perks

[Reggie]

So please, Qantas, don't go down a similar path to AA where people are queuing at the gate service desk to look for upgrades, and then rarely having a flight depart where the premium cabins are not 100% filled.

Here here NM

 

[Platy]

So that would mean you would I either prefer QF to not keep some seats available for last minute sale or for premium cabin flexibility, or you would like them to continue processing upgrades at the gate until the doors close.

Yes, you're correct, everyone's perceptions are different, which is one reason why his forum is very valuable. I am also basing my comments on domestic flights - I have only ever once upgraded an international flight. I am however, assuming that the customer should come first and that service levels are important for customer perceptions of value and for customer retention (ironically domestically Virgin is improving its business product, whilst QF has been allowing its own to go backwards over the last 6 years). I also expect QF to make a serious effort to accommodate redemption of fequent flyer points which customers have earned, fair and square.

NM, why not somewhere in between the options which you quote?

What I (personally) would like is to be able to upgrade a domestic flight online up to a couple of hours before departure rather than get caught out in this stupid 24 hour embargo. We all know this is how it used to work. I seem to remember a 3 hour or 2 hour cut off (?).

(Incidentally, you used to be able to book a paid flight online up to 2 hours before departure and this has slipped back to 4 hours so you are forced to pay the regressive booking fee if you are trying to fly at under 4 hours notice. Yet another customer service degradation from QF).

I would also like staff to follow the system which QF management tell me is in place namely, that subload staff do not get allocated a place in J or a seat allocation until after 30 minutes before a domestic departure. That still provides reasonable opportunity for "last minute" paying customers up to 30 minutes before and later if the cabin is not full. I KNOW this isn't happening in all cases from my own personal observations.

I would like to see QF price its J class at a price which will enable the J class dom seats to be sold to a greater loading with paid passengers, thus offer a better price to us customers and a greater level of profitability (through increased volume) for QF instead of the cabin being filled with "free-loading" staff (yes I know it's part of their deal and good luck to tthem, BUT not at the expense of real customers and at the abuse of the system) - BA do this - you can get discount "J" fares (D etc?) online for most flights - that is very limited here (SYD-MEL,SYD-BNE etc). Qf domestic has gone up 50% in 5 years, an unjustifiable increase, whilst service levels have declined, as the airline price gouges in the competition void. On the SYD-CNS route at least staff can occupy 50-70% available J seats.

I would like to see QF manage its catering so that we customers are not denied upgrades due to something as stupid as not enough meals have been pre-allocated to a certain flight. What that says to me as a customer is that saving a few dollars (strict meal allocations) is more important than customer service (facilitating an upgrade request).

I do not like entering a FIRST class cabin and finding that half the passengers are staff. This dilutes the product.

I have not flown domestically in the US for many years so cannot comment on the AA system (I was due to do a mileage run on a DONE4 in August, but as posted elsewhere QF sales screwed up the booking and it was cancelled two days before departure).

However, I seem to remember that ANSETT had a system whereby Golden Wing (Club) members would get a boarding pass for Y and leave them at the club desk until the fluight was called - any spare seats would be quietly filled as available with minimum fuss and I believe on a complimentary basis for status flyers (?). What was wrong with that?!

I am sure we have ALL had experiences on QF where we have been denied an upgrade only to find LOTS of empty seats in J. In my book, at least, that scores a ZERO in terms of commitment to the customer (either the seats are wrongly priced (idle unsold product) and/or QF is not interested in looking after a frequent flyer (facilitating an upgrade).


One final point - on trying different multi-stop award bookings recently (eg. CNS-BNE-NRT), I noticed that the available flights changed (eg the BNE-NRT leg) according to the first sector chosen (eg CNS-BNE) - thus the system is NOT programmed to do a simple search for U (or whatever) class seats, but appears to offer the least convenient (greatest stopover time) combination of flights. Again this is just plain NUTS!!!

Sorry, guys, but Qf could be doing a LOT more for its frequent flyers and is riding on past reputation and lingering bonhomie from a loyal band of regulars.

 

[Dave Noble]

However, I seem to remember that ANSETT had a system whereby Golden Wing (Club) members would get a boarding pass for Y and leave them at the club desk until the fluight was called - any spare seats would be quietly filled as available with minimum fuss and I believe on a complimentary basis for status flyers (?). What was wrong with that?!

There's a lot wrong with that; giving away free upgrades dilutes the product dramatically; who is going to pay the higher J fares if they are being given away like candy if there are spare seats; it would just lead to the problems of US carriers where 1st domestically is almost an upgrade class

I am sure we have ALL had experiences on QF where we have been denied an upgrade only to find LOTS of empty seats in J. In my book, at least, that scores a ZERO in terms of commitment to the customer (either the seats are wrongly priced (idle unsold product) and/or QF is not interested in looking after a frequent flyer (facilitating an upgrade).

So there are no shows. The airline needs to cater for the paying passenger ahead of upgrades; if some upgrades don't clear then c'est la vie

Sorry, guys, but Qf could be doing a LOT more for its frequent flyers and is riding on past reputation and lingering bonhomie from a loyal band of regulars.

There are other FF programmes out there that people can switch to if they feel that QFF doesn't meet their requirements

As far as the booking tool goes, my experience is that where a decent through connection can be offered, it does, though I would tend to also look for availability on a sector by sector basis

Dave

 

[Platy]

There's a lot wrong with that; giving away free upgrades dilutes the product dramatically; who is going to pay the higher J fares if they are being given away like candy if there are spare seats; it would just lead to the problems of US carriers where 1st domestically is almost an upgrade class

So there are no shows.

There are other FF programmes out there that people can switch to if they feel that QFF doesn't meet their requirements

Dave

Yes, Dave, you are absolutely right about the danger of diluting product.

Yes, no shows MIGHT be a factor, but hard to believe if you regularly fail to get an upgrade on a flight where there are say 12 empty seats on a 767 with 25 or 30 J capacity. The airline is clearly NOT making every reasonable attempt to accommodate redemption of points in such cases.

Yes, again you are right, we all have the choice of joining other FF schemes (yes I belong to Velocity) and optimising return acording to individual requirements. Unfortunately, the Virgin scheme isn't quite up to par (status was a good step forward, better international integration is now needed)

...however, as a Platinum customer of QF of 19 years loyalty I also feel it important to articulate my dissatisfaction when service levels decline, systems aren't followed, (and feedback positive experiences) to appropriate folk in the airline.

 

[oz_mark]

There's a lot wrong with that; giving away free upgrades dilutes the product dramatically; who is going to pay the higher J fares if they are being given away like candy if there are spare seats; it would just lead to the problems of US carriers where 1st domestically is almost an upgrade class

Conceptually, though, there is no difference between an airline doing it and a hotel upgrading to better rooms/suites based on availibility of the room. It helps build loyalty to a particular group, and when there is greater competition then you have to go a step further to try and keep people using your product.

 

[Platy]

The associated point is you are not going to get upgraded UNLESS you have already achieved a certain level of status and that in turns means you would have to have the requisite spend.

Also in Ansett days the difference in price between Y and J was relatively less anyway (hence the cap on being able to upgrade certain discount Y fares these days!).

 

[NM]

I am also basing my comments on domestic flights - I have only ever once upgraded an international flight.

Ahh, my comments were more related to international, which is where most of my travelis these days. Domestic ODU is a little different, being considered much closer to departure time than international waitlisted upgrades. However, I certainly have benefited from QF's policy to retain some J seats for last minute changes when my inbound international flight has been delayed and I have missed a domestic connection and been moved to the next flight (still in business class).

What I (personally) would like is to be able to upgrade a domestic flight online up to a couple of hours before departure rather than get caught out in this stupid 24 hour embargo. We all know this is how it used to work. I seem to remember a 3 hour or 2 hour cut off (?).

For my 4 domestic economy flights this year, I have managed to obtain a confirmed upgrade for three of them in the few days before the flight. Of course once confirmed there is a 5000 point penalty if later cancelled, but I have not had need to do that. And of course those confirmed upgrades were available to any member regardless of status due to U class being available at the time. The 4th flight I managed an ODU.

I have actually been amazed at how much U is available for domestic flights in the week prior to departure. The only one I had to use an ODU was for a BNE-PER flight (PER-BNE did have U available). For my recent BNE-SYD-BNE, I saw U available for almost every flight of the day - in both directions.

I would also like staff to follow the system which QF management tell me is in place namely, that subload staff do not get allocated a place in J or a seat allocation until after 30 minutes before a domestic departure. That still provides reasonable opportunity for "last minute" paying customers up to 30 minutes before and later if the cabin is not full. I KNOW this isn't happening in all cases from my own personal observations.

Are you certain the staff you have seen receiving preference over paying passengers are in fact sub-load staff on personal travel? Remember that staff repositioning for work purposes must travel in J as part of their union-negotiated working conditions.

I do not like entering a FIRST class cabin and finding that half the passengers are staff. This dilutes the product.

Have you seen that in the F cabin? I was of the belief that only senior staff are permitted to purchase F class ID fares, such as Captains and senior management. To find 7 or so staff in the F cabin does seem outrageous and worth highlighting to Qantas management.

I have not flown domestically in the US for many years so cannot comment on the AA system (I was due to do a mileage run on a DONE4 in August, but as posted elsewhere QF sales screwed up the booking and it was cancelled two days before departure).

It can be a real circus. Quite fascicle to watch. In fact, at many airports they now display the "upgrade list" on the monitors at the gate, with people watching intently in the minutes before boarding just to see if their name moves up the list. It seems to put a very hoigh workload on the Gate AAgents as they "process" the waitlists, maage the overselling of the coach cabin, call for volunteers to accept a bump voucher etc all in the 20 mins prior to boarding commencing. The QF experience at the gate is much more civilised.

One final point - on trying different multi-stop award bookings recently (eg. CNS-BNE-NRT), I noticed that the available flights changed (eg the BNE-NRT leg) according to the first sector chosen (eg CNS-BNE) - thus the system is NOT programmed to do a simple search for U (or whatever) class seats, but appears to offer the least convenient (greatest stopover time) combination of flights. Again this is just plain NUTS!!!

I sometimes think the system is programmed to maximise the number of segments and hence the fuel fine revenue when searching for award itineraries. I rarely manage to find direct routings being available, forcing multiple segments and hence multiple fuel fines. I am very happy to now only use my QF FF points to upgrade flight and use my AAdvantage miles for award flights. Seems to give me the best of both worlds.

Sorry, guys, but Qf could be doing a LOT more for its frequent flyers and is riding on past reputation and lingering bonhomie from a loyal band of regulars.

No need to be sorry. The poor benefits provided to members is the main reason my QF FF account has earned 0 SCs for the past 2 years. I still fly with QF as I find their ground and in-flight services to be acceptable, but the FF program leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[drron]

Admittedly, I have only travelled AA 12 times but I have not seen a spare seat in First class on any of these flights.

DEN-DFW and DFW-ATL on 11th september both had empty first class seats even with all the upgrades.Maybe the date had something to do with it.On both sectors uniformed staff relocating for work that day were seated in coach.What amazed me more was that some of these staff actually helped out when they were not on duty for that flight-hence being able to talk to them when they served the first class passengers.Their had been a MS meeting in Denver so particularly on the first sector the FA's had a heavy workload assisting passengers to their seats so the non-rostered staff served the pre-flight drinks.

 

[milehighclub]

Are you certain the staff you have seen receiving preference over paying passengers are in fact sub-load staff on personal travel? Remember that staff repositioning for work purposes must travel in J as part of their union-negotiated working conditions.

Management and Captains can purchase F class staff travel but staff can usually get F class when on duty travel if it is available.

 

[Platy]

Are you certain the staff you have seen receiving preference over paying passengers are in fact sub-load staff on personal travel?

Have you seen that in the F cabin?

I sometimes think the system is programmed to maximise the number of segments. ...I am very happy to now only use my QF FF points to upgrade .

No need to be sorry...the FF program leaves a lot to be desired.

Yes, I have had occasions of being unable to purchase J (or secure a ODU) and you would be amazed how often the manifest is left in full public view in the front or back galley!

The people I have seen in First may indeed be management. The funny thing being a couple of years ago I went to the UK via BKK (QF1) twice in few months and saw the same QF people on the flight - I don't care if they are management or not - they shouldn't be there when pax are paying $16,000 return for an exclusive high end product. Incidentally, these guys stuck out like a sore thumb - not just the air of self importance, but the curious tactic of wearing their first pyjamas in the terminal on the BKK stopover! I am a little less concerned about pilots in first if they are DUTY staff since I would like to feel they are sleeping well (but then a skybed in J should be good enough for that these days).

I have found this on BA too. Travelling LHR-BKK on BA in first at the beginning of September I sat near two BA staff who were "just" engineers, certainly neither pilots nor senior managers and on their way for a holiday (thus subload category) in Thailand.

Yes, the system is programmed in a way that does NOT necessarily offer the most convenient combination of flights EVEN THOUGH SEATS ARE AVAILABLE ON THE BETTER FLIGHT COMBOs WHEN LOOKED AT INDIVIDUALLY!!! It is very hard not to draw the conclusion we are being deliberately messed with and yes quite possibly to garner extra revenue through those regressive fuel fines on redemption flights.

Yes, using points for upgrades is the best solution - however, I do like to do a first class to europe to see family once every 3 years and then will happily blow the 386,000 pts as a treat since it is hard to justify a fare purchase and cash offset on my business.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks that QF could do better with the FF scheme. If I did more international travel I would seriously consider joining the AA scheme. I have considered doing just that if I end up doing a AONE4 or DONE4 - assign enough flights to QF to maintain Platinum and then start accruing status/points on AA. I would prefer to reach Lifetime Gold on QF first and then switch fully to AA (IF there is still such a thing after the next round of FF changes!).

Incidentally, as someone who believes QF needs to hear the good and the bad rather than just putting up with all their cough, I am due to have a face to face meeting with their new GM of Customer Service. I shall be raising the above issues (and many others!) in that meeting. The overall themes will be the senior management's arrogant attitude to customers (and staff), the degradation in service levels (particularly at the high end product), the excessive price hikes in domestic J over the last 5 years, the dilution of the FF scheme.

 

[MelUser]

Caught up with a friend of mine for dinner Friday night. His wife has been with QF for 14 years. She is currently the head stewardess in charge of economy cabin on international flights. She has a title but I'm not sure what it is.

They are not allowed into First Class. They can travel standby in J on holidays and pay 10% of full fare. I think too they have to behave (ie can't get drunk) and dress decently (ie not like slobs). They are both classy people so this isn't an issue.

They can get downgraded but this is very rare.

 

[serfty]

Once issue I came across a bit over two years ago was when trying to ODU a group of 4 including myself - BNE-MEL on a Saturday Night.

Basically I was told that even though there would be spare seats in J, there was only one seat available for ODU. This related specifically to the catering for the flight. Qantas had budgeted a certain number of seats to be used and had only ordered a certain number of meals.

In the interests of family harmony, the ODU was subsequently used by my 25yo daughter and 18mo Grandson. The aircraft was a ZX series 763. She reported that, for the flight, less than ½ of the 30 J seats were used with the last 2 rows completely empty.

 

[Platy]

Qantas had budgeted a certain number of seats to be used and had only ordered a certain number of meals...less than ½ of the 30 J seats were used with the last 2 rows completely empty.

So...to Qantas management, the cost of over-budgeting by a meal or two and/or the inconvenience of loading a couple of extra meals just before the flight is more important than facilitating an upgrade to a loyal customer, who has earned their FF points fair and square.

Cost cutting comes before customer in the eyes of QF management.

No doubt IF they do indeed change the FF scheme to bring it up to the industry standard of making all SEATS available for redemption (like Air NZ and Virgin Blue), they will take the opportunity to dilute the worth of points again.

 

[Dave Noble]

So...to Qantas management, the cost of over-budgeting by a meal or two and/or the inconvenience of loading a couple of extra meals just before the flight is more important than facilitating an upgrade to a loyal customer, who has earned their FF points fair and square.

It is ridiculous to cater for 30 passengers when there are 12 booked passengers just on the chance that 18 people would want to upgrade. Upgrades are NOT guaranteed but are subject to space and catering

No doubt IF they do indeed change the FF scheme to bring it up to the industry standard of making all SEATS available for redemption (like Air NZ and Virgin Blue), they will take the opportunity to dilute the worth of points again.

Some airlines offering it does not a standard make

Dave

 

[NM]

Some airlines offering it does not a standard make

Especially when many of those offering such "services" come from a land where customer and service and company profitability have reached such low standards that they need all sorts of incentives to retain their customers and cash flow, but cannot make enough money to undertake important processes like fleet upgrades.

When an upgrade becomes a right or an expectation rather than benefit, things start quickly down a slippery slope. Protection of the premium cabin from from the value dilution that results from making it an upgrade cabin seems to be an important long-term strategy by QF. If they manage that process through catering, then so be it.

 

[serfty]

... Cost cutting comes before customer in the eyes of QF management. ...

I would not call it cost cutting, merely good business practice. Each J meal service has a certain cost; only catering for the known bookings with a small leeway makes sense to me.

Facits of my anecdote I do not know are:

1. How many J seats had been sold on the morning of the flight.
2. How many extra/just-in-case meals had been alowed for.
3. How many other ODU's had been granted.
4. How many walk up fares had been sold

It may be that Qantas had originally budgeted for four additional J meals and the bookings numbers had already increased by 3 OR Qantas had budgeted for NO additional meals and there had been a cancellation.

 

[Platy]

It is ridiculous to cater for 30 passengers when there are 12 booked passengers just on the chance that 18 people would want to upgrade

Agreed, Dave, over-catering to that extent would be ridiculous, but with respect I specifically said over catering by a meal or two. I am arguing that the airline has gone too far the other way, that there is now too little leeway and a better balance would improve the customer experience.

I have been denied ODUs a number of times for catering reasons on 737-800's (CNS-SYD flights), which have 12 J seats with there being say 3 spare seats. Thus the MAXIMUM potential over cater would be 2 or 3 meals for seats in case there is a last minute paid customer (worth $1,235 income) or an ODU (reducing the airline's points liability by 16,000 points).

I have also been given boarding passes with "catering not guaranteed" printed on them when securing an ODU. I have even had this happen to me swapping between the two afternoon/evening 737 flights Canberra- Sydney on FULLY FLEXIBLE paid economy fare - as you know those jet flights are very popular, usually very full so it hard to conclude anything other than that the catering is set within VERY TIGHT limits and in any case demonstrably to the extent that it is detrimental to me as a loyal customer both for paid and ODU scenarios.

Yes, you are also correct that one or two airlines does not a standard make. However, making all seats potentially available for redemption is currently the highest standard in terms of being the least restrictive on the customer.

 

[Dave Noble]

I have been denied ODUs a number of times for catering reasons on 737-800's (CNS-SYD flights), which have 12 J seats with there being say 3 spare seats. Thus the MAXIMUM potential over cater would be 2 or 3 meals for seats in case there is a last minute paid customer (worth $1,235 income) or an ODU (reducing the airline's points liability by 16,000 points).

There could well have been 6 bookings when catering was worked out and then there were 3 late boookings or ppl upgrading before you and that they had catered for 9; points use are a way of allowing any SPARE availability not an expectation that they will cater specifically just in case upgrades are wanted

You being unable to get the upgrade does not imply that no-one was able to upgrade

Dave

 

[Platy]

When an upgrade becomes a right or an expectation rather than benefit, things start quickly down a slippery slope. Protection of the premium cabin from from the value dilution that results from making it an upgrade cabin seems to be an important long-term strategy by QF. If they manage that process through catering, then so be it.

I am assuming that we are on same page here and talking about upgrades using our FF points and not complimentary upgrades?

What have I missed? Surely QF is indeed seeking to create an "expectation" in the customer that they will have a reasonable opportunity to upgrade flights, redeem points for flights (access "awards", benefits" and "privileges") in return for their loyalty. Are you really saying that no frequent flyer is entitled to such an expectation? Are you suggesting we should be genuflecting in surprise and gratitude, and praising our good fortune, every time QF deigns to grant us a benefit?

Yes, you may be right, the airline may prefer to fill seats with direct revenue custom rather than upgrade or award customers. I would suggest, however, that the main driver to effect that outcome would be making sure the product and product pricing is correct, rather than twiddle around with catering allocations to enable an excuse not to honour FF scheme "benefits".

 

[Platy]

I would not call it cost cutting, merely good business practice.

Yes, indeed, there are some unknown factors, and yes, absolutely, running a business to optimise financial return and minimise outlay is implicit in good business practice.

It also makes sense from a business perspective to encourage customer loyalty, but also to minimise the cost of rewarding that loyalty, to the point where customers don't get too pissed off or transfer business to a competitor. That tipping point will vary from customer to customer just as customer perceptions will vary.