Qantas surveying members about spend-based status attainment

[andye]

I always thought that from an airline's perspective, the FF programme should be there to drive incremental spend (in air and on ground) rather than just a proportionate reward for spending.

I'd expect that the majority of people flying expensive flex domestic fares have minimal input into who they fly with.

Whereas the moderate/low fare flyer might be prepared to spend a bit more to achieve a status level (and hence be more likely to engage in credit cards/other partners too) if they can make it work.

Cash is not unimportant too though. There are quite a few people who claim to be QF loyalists when they fly their biennial Y trip. This is like expecting a partner to be grateful just because you don't sleep with anyone else, but never pay them a compliment or take them to dinner

 

[MEL_Traveller]

If you are prepared to pay $10k to fly J internationally, you likely wouldn't need to fly budget airlines like VA or JQ domestically unless going somewhere where VA is the only carrier i.e. Christmas Island. QF domestic whY sale fares are regularly available and the QF flights tend to be more frequent.

You’re making an assumption here, perhaps based on your own travel preferences. Plenty of people will fork out for business class internationally, but can’t justify the expense domestically.

$10k to LAX gets you 360SCs for the return. You’d need an awful lot of domestic SYD-MELs to get close to 700 to attain gold.

 

[elanshin]

You’re making an assumption here, perhaps based on your own travel preferences. Plenty of people will fork out for business class internationally, but can’t justify the expense domestically.

$10k to LAX gets you 360SCs for the return. You’d need an awful lot of domestic SYD-MELs to get close to 700 to attain gold.

And let's be honest, a qf 737 id not that different to a VA 737 or JQ 320. Its the other factors that see people flying QF.

 

[drron]

There certainly are a few of us who nearly always fly on the cheapest Y fare domestically but will pay for J and sometimes even F on international flights. Every one is different.

 

[Lynda2475]

You’re making an assumption here, perhaps based on your own travel preferences. Plenty of people will fork out for business class internationally, but can’t justify the expense domestically.

Nope, I made no assumption re class flown domestically just budget vs full service carrier. But i maintain if you prefer J long haul you are less likely to fly a budget carrier in whY when a full service whY with meal and luggage is only a few $ more and has many more domestic flights to choose from.

I mentioned BIS (bum in seat) flying that doesn't mean J.

$10k to LAX gets you 360SCs for the return. You’d need an awful lot of domestic SYD-MELs to get close to 700 to attain gold.

Yes which is why status should be based on BIS (bum-in-seat) flying and not gifted to someone who only does one syd-lax return a year.

You also conveniently ignore that you can reduce significantly via DSC and also using green tier and loyalty bonuses.

When I did SYD- MEL every other week for work, I made sure I did my personal domestic and personal International flying with QF or another One World partner again making status quicker than relying on SYD-MEL alone.

I rarely fly J domestically.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You can have loyalty on a one-off flight by choosing QF instead of UA or DL.

Not everyone is across the DSCs!

 

[Lynda2475]

LOL a one off cannot by definition be a case of showing loyalty.

Loyalty requires repeat business. If you chose QF over UA or DL that is a choice. If you travel frequently and always preference QF/OW over others then that is loyalty.

 

[drron]

Well I nearly got BA gold on an F fare on the old BKK fare. I ended up just 60TPs short on a spend of- $8500.
Yet Mrsdrron didn’t qualify for WP with 2 such trips crediting to QFF.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

LOL a one off cannot by definition be a case of showing loyalty.

Loyalty requires repeat business. If you chose QF over UA or DL that is a choice. If you travel frequently and always preference QF/OW over others then that is loyalty.

Buy definition loyalty is a state of mind. It's your feeling or allegiance towards something.

A one-off trip, or your annual trip year on year only flying Qantas can be expressions of loyalty.

People were loyal to ford or Holden but they didn't have to buy a car every week!

Agree that a one off may not be the definition of a frequent flyer! Which of course is the name of many of these programs.

 

[Vic]

LOL a one off cannot by definition be a case of showing loyalty.

Loyalty requires repeat business. If you chose QF over UA or DL that is a choice. If you travel frequently and always preference QF/OW over others then that is loyalty.

Going back to you earlier post. I'd say someone that chooses to fly qantas for their one #10K business trip EVERY year is showing loyalty.
Cost of lift time status is interesting. It cost me, on JQ QF and other one world carriers, $39000 to go from 1846 status credits to QF lifetime silver.
$73000 to get the next 7000 status credits with QF, again across all carriers that earn status with qantas - JQ, Oneworld and maybe Emirates.

It has been stated before the person who flies one $10k J trip a year does get lounge access as part of J, what is the point of giving them more since they dont fly more? If they want gold all they need do is book that 1 trip in DSC plus add a domestic trip in the same period and they'd have SG.

If you are prepared to pay $10k to fly J internationally, you likely wouldn't need to fly budget airlines like VA or JQ domestically unless going somewhere where VA is the only carrier i.e. Christmas Island. QF domestic whY sale fares are regularly available and the QF flights tend to be more frequent.

Nope, I made no assumption re class flown domestically just budget vs full service carrier. But i maintain if you prefer J long haul you are less likely to fly a budget carrier in whY when a full service whY with meal and luggage is only a few $ more and has many more domestic flights to choose from.

Sorry you are making some massive assumptions here, IMO.
I'd first touch on the earlier assumption about having a business to pay for flights. My business might choose to buy me a $10000 business international flight. But I'm the one making the decision and the money is my PERSONAL money, being earnt by my labour.

Now if I'm heading overseas on a 14 hour flight, and return, for 2 days of meetings - It is literally worth my time to pay for business. I need to arrive in a fairly ok state and get work done.

There is almost no way in hell that means I'm going to go for the meal and luggage for a 1 hour golden triangle flight. Qantas can be consistently $200 more than VA on domestic, and upto double the cost. The assumption about a few dollars more really doesn't match my experience.

In economy, the meal sure as hell ain't worth it on domestic. In business, breakfast is not worth it, but I'd probably rate VA business breaky over Qantas. Lunch Dinner in business is about the same.

Finally, I can often get VA domestic business for the same cost or less than Qantas flexible economy. The choice is often between Qantas economy and VA business on domestic. Even then Economy X and a couple of archie rose gins is mostly likely the better deal, considering cost and seat.
Remember, my business might be paying, but I'm the one deciding. My decision for domestic carrier isn't based on the whether I flew Qater to europe the month before in business.

 

[Sabot]

Yes, but if you're flying for work I would assume that work pays, based on the needs of the business.

So I imagine there won't be much possibility of spending more with Qantas under a pure revenue system (unless work doesn't monitor its travel spend closely). Said by someone who flew extensively for work.

Work pays of course, but I am fortunate to be able to book all my travel independently. Point was mainly that there can be a lot of $500 - $700 and 20 SC return flights each year to get to 300 SC.

 

[Lynda2475]

It cost me, on JQ QF and other one world carriers, $39000 to go from 1846 status credits to QF lifetime silver.

So a lot less than $100k which was my point.

$73000 to get the next 7000 status credits with QF, again across all carriers that earn status with qantas

Again significantly less than $100k.

I myself am on track to go from LTS to LTG for about $40k (provided the current booking class + distance scheme remajns), because I plan well ahead monitoring prices and buy 90% of my flights 10 months out from travel date.

Personally never experienced a $200 difference between QF whY and VA whY domestic fares, sure it happens but i suspect with fares purchased much closer to departure date and outside sales.

Whenever i have travelled at my employers or clients request they have paid for flights, never had to use my own personal funds. And company's rarely pay retail rates, the last company i travelled for regularly would get fares lower than red-e deals up to 5 days out even if not sale on.

If self employed you don't have that sort of bargaining power, but you can plan ahead. If VA suits you better great, doesn't mean QF should adopt their spend based SC model, QF are wise to have another point of difference.

@MEL_Traveller a customers warm and fuzzy feelings don't factor into how companies recognise loyalty or value; they track transactions. For airlines that is primarily flights taken and points earned - things that constitute $ for them.

Buying 1 J ticket once (or once every few years) doesnt make you as engaged as someone who flies 20 times a year.

Noting that QF do assign a value (PCV) separate to your status, which does factor in recent spend. This PCV comes into play for example when they decide who between two customers with same ticket type and status gets an upgrade.

 

[Vic]

So a lot less than $100k which was my point.


Again significantly less than $100k.

I myself am on track to go from LTS to LTG for about $40k (provided the current booking class + distance scheme remajns), because I plan well ahead monitoring prices and buy 90% of my flights 10 months out from travel date.

Personally never experienced a $200 difference between QF whY and VA whY domestic fares, sure it happens but i suspect with fares purchased much closer to departure date and outside sales.

Whenever i have travelled at my employers or clients request they have paid for flights, never had to use my own personal funds. And company's rarely pay retail rates, the last company i travelled for regularly would get fares lower than red-e deals up to 5 days out even if no sale on.

If self employed you don't have that sort of bargaining power, but you can plan ahead. If VA suits you better great, doesn't mean QF should adopt their spend based SC model, QF are wise to have another point of difference.

@MEL_Traveller a customers warm and fuzzy feelings don't factor into how companies recognise loyalty or value; they track transactions. For airlines that is primarily flights taken and points earned - things that constitute $ for them.

Buying 1 J ticket once (or once every few years) doesnt make you as engaged as someone who flies 20 times a year.

Noting that QF do assign a value (PCV) separate to your status, which does factor in recent spend. This PCV comes into play for example when they decide who between two customers with same ticket type and status gets an upgrade.

Ok seems that you're not really getting the point.

A $200 fare difference is NORMAL. Usually much more of a difference.A trip I have in the planning Sydney Adelaide 9 January at a decent hour. VA Flex $259, QF Flex $709 - more than double. VA business - $660 QF business $1359.
In ten months, SYD BNE 3 Oct - Flex economy VA$195, QF$359 (that's almost $200 more) - A coughpy fritata in a cardboard box at 6 am is not worth $164, especially when I'm guaranteed to get a better seat on VA. Business VA $339 QF $549 (=339+210).

The idea that someone will choose a so called full service airline for domestic flights based on flying in business to europe for $10000 does not stack up. Also I need to buy flex, so not sure a comparison with red-e-deals purchased in 10 months time is valid. I mostly find that if I buy red-e-deals I'll end up paying a heap of change fees and should have just got the flex fare.

I'd say that $70K is not significantly less than $100K, but that's just mathematics.

You said loyal, now this is changing to engaged???

When I travel for my business, yes the client pays. Not sure how that's relevant.
The earnings in the business are my money. Just really not sure about this idea that a business paying for an airfare somehow means the status earned is different.
But then it looks like assumptions are being made about my business.
Anyway, I'm not really interested in the twists and turns. That's my experience.

 

[Lynda2475]

Ok seems that you're not really getting the point.

I get your point, you prefer VA, it works for you. You don't like Qantas, don't fly them.

Your lack of spend/loyalty with QF doesn't mean QF should weaken their FFP to copy a $ based SC approach that VA are adopting.

Based on your comments Qantas aren't going to win your business anyway given your uncertain flying patterns and desire for LCC fare structure; so why do care or want their status to be earned differently?

Noting there is on AFF alone hundreds of posts from "loyal" VA customers complaining about the negative recent changes to Velocity, where one will now need to spend significantly more $ than previously to get any status with them.

I'd say that $70K is not significantly less than $100K, but that's just mathematics.

Mathematically speaking it is 30% less and closer to $50k than $100k. It is an opinion but most people would consider a 30% discount great and would baulk at rounding up a purchase by 30%.

You said loyal, now this is changing to engaged???

No. Loyalty from the airlines point of view is purely a transactional business, in fact QFs FFP is extremely profitable loyalty program earning over $1b/pa. You have to be engaged and spending with the airline and their partners (be that retail or airlines); sentimentality alone is not worth anything as reflected by status and PCV.

You cant be a loyal customer without first being a customer (not just wishing you could be one). The limit for being a loyal customer is clearly defined by the program itself - for points it is 18 months (unless you stay engaged and earn more) and for status it is until the end of the FF year after you earned it (if you do not re-qualify).

When I travel for my business, yes the client pays. Not sure how that's relevant.

Because you were claiming it comes out of your personal pocket when the reality is any travel expenses are reimbursed in full(unless your customers do not pay their invoices); so not the same an an individual funding their own travel at all.

If you are expecting to profit from work travel expenses then you must be wanting to charge the customer more than is incurred which is not typical IME.

But then it looks like assumptions are being made about my business.

Only that if your business is regularly paying $500-$700 for one way SYD-MEL then it cant possibly have access to the corporate preferred rates that other companies have.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in the twists and turns. That's my experience.

And my experience is mine.

IMO VAs status is only useful for their limited mostly domestic network (provided you live in one of the 7 cities that have a lounge), as they are not part of any global program so unless flying J you wont have any lounge access internationally.

QFs domestic division is more profitable than QF international, so although some here are disparaging regular domestic flying on QF as being lesser than a once off QF J LAX trip, the reality would appear to be the opposite.

I sincerely hope QF keep SC earn tied to flying and not just spending.