Qantas treats Perth like dirt

[medhead]

- worst planes in the QF fleet
- despite longest segments, often has only QStreaming and sometimes not even that!

The aircraft get mixed up pretty well across all destination. Perth certainly doesn't get the worse planes in the fleet. In fact, Perth actually get a large number of wide board services. Something that can't be said for at least 2 other Australian capital cities. Q streaming is actually the new "in" thing. (even if the range of content is limited)

Valid point. However I think the annoying thing about JNB is that the you have to fly to Sydney then fly back, almost watching Perth slide by out the window as you take 5 hours to cover ground you just spent 4 hours flying over in the opposite direction. It's one route where I think it would make sense to make everyone else connect to a direct flight from PER. Perth would then be a sort of west coast mini-hub. Obviously a million people will disagree, as, evidently, does Qantas.

If 1000 miles south is almost.

 

[UP4014]

Valid point. However I think the annoying thing about JNB is that the you have to fly to Sydney then fly back, almost watching Perth slide by out the window as you take 5 hours to cover ground you just spent 4 hours flying over in the opposite direction. It's one route where I think it would make sense to make everyone else connect to a direct flight from PER. Perth would then be a sort of west coast mini-hub. Obviously a million people will disagree, as, evidently, does Qantas.

I think you'll find they head south straight over Geelong.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

If 1000 miles south is almost.

When you live in Perth, 1000 miles is next door.

 

[medhead]

When you live in Perth, 1000 miles is next door.

The point remains, the plane flies over Melbourne heading south, towards the southern ocean. It is nowhere near Perth at any stage.

Btw 1000 miles is the distance Brisbane to Cairns, or Karratha to Perth. Now when I was working in Capel my relatives in Karratha certainly didn't indicate they were just next door when talking me out of a weekend drive.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The point remains, the plane flies over Melbourne heading south, towards the southern ocean. It is nowhere near Perth at any stage.

Btw 1000 miles is the distance Brisbane to Cairns, or Karratha to Perth. Now when I was working in Capel my relatives in Karratha certainly didn't indicate they were just next door when talking me out of a weekend drive.

I included the word "almost" because I was talking figuratively, not literally.
The point remains that if I want to fly from PER-JNB with QF I must spend at least 10 hours effectively going nowhere.

For those who need information presented in a more literal manner I offer the following table.
Shortest routings per airline, ranked according to the shortest average journey time.

PER<-->JNB Total journey times (includes layovers):
[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Airline[/TD]
[TD]Routing[/TD]
[TD]Outbound[/TD]
[TD]Return[/TD]
[TD]Average[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SA[/TD]
[TD]PER-JNB[/TD]
[TD]11 hrs 10 mins[/TD]
[TD]9 hrs 10 mins[/TD]
[TD]10 hrs 10 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SQ[/TD]
[TD]PER-SIN-JNB[/TD]
[TD]19 hrs 45 mins[/TD]
[TD]15 hrs 35 mins[/TD]
[TD]17 hrs 40 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]EK[/TD]
[TD]PER-DXB-JNB[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 50 mins[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 30 mins[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 40 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]QF[/TD]
[TD]PER-SYD-JNB[/TD]
[TD]23 hrs 15 mins[/TD]
[TD]18 hrs 30 mins[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 52.5 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]QR[/TD]
[TD]PER-DOH-JNB[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 35 mins[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 55 mins[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 45 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]EY[/TD]
[TD]PER-AUH-JNB[/TD]
[TD]29 hrs 30 mins[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 25 mins[/TD]
[TD]25 hrs 27.5 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CX[/TD]
[TD]PER-HKG-JNB[/TD]
[TD]29 hrs 25 mins[/TD]
[TD]35 hrs 20 mins[/TD]
[TD]32 hrs 22.5 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I trust this makes the point adequately.
The trip via SYD is over twice as long.

Perth-based PAX would be better off flying via SIN with SQ or via DXB with EK.
Flying via DOH with QR isn't far behind and even via AUH with EY is competitive.
And the trip via HKG might be long but then there are the delightful CX First lounges to visit.
Especially when you consider that flying via SIN, DXB, DOH or AUH or even HKG would all be fully international with no airport to airport transfers.
Whereas flying via Sydney means you have to transfer between terminals in both directions, wasting time you could spend sipping champagne in the lounge.
On return of course it would be even worse, as you would have to collect your luggage in SYD and check it in again for PER.
And there is no champagne in the domestic lounges in either PER or SYD, or even in the international J lounge in SYD.
Nor is there any business class transfer between terminals!

 

[UP4014]

I included the word "almost" because I was talking figuratively, not literally.
The point remains that if I want to fly from PER-JNB with QF I must spend at least 10 hours effectively going nowhere.

For those who need information presented in a more literal manner I offer the following table.
Shortest routings per airline, ranked according to the shortest average journey time.

PER<-->JNB Total journey times (includes layovers):
[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Airline[/TD]
[TD]Routing[/TD]
[TD]Outbound[/TD]
[TD]Return[/TD]
[TD]Average[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SA[/TD]
[TD]PER-JNB[/TD]
[TD]11 hrs 10 mins[/TD]
[TD]9 hrs 10 mins[/TD]
[TD]10 hrs 10 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SQ[/TD]
[TD]PER-SIN-JNB[/TD]
[TD]19 hrs 45 mins[/TD]
[TD]15 hrs 35 mins[/TD]
[TD]17 hrs 40 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]EK[/TD]
[TD]PER-DXB-JNB[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 50 mins[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 30 mins[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 40 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]QF[/TD]
[TD]PER-SYD-JNB[/TD]
[TD]23 hrs 15 mins[/TD]
[TD]18 hrs 30 mins[/TD]
[TD]20 hrs 52.5 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]QR[/TD]
[TD]PER-DOH-JNB[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 35 mins[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 55 mins[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 45 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]EY[/TD]
[TD]PER-AUH-JNB[/TD]
[TD]29 hrs 30 mins[/TD]
[TD]21 hrs 25 mins[/TD]
[TD]25 hrs 27.5 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CX[/TD]
[TD]PER-HKG-JNB[/TD]
[TD]29 hrs 25 mins[/TD]
[TD]35 hrs 20 mins[/TD]
[TD]32 hrs 22.5 mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I trust this makes the point adequately.
The trip via SYD is over twice as long.

Perth-based PAX would be better off flying via SIN with SQ or via DXB with EK.
Flying via DOH with QR isn't far behind and even via AUH with EY is competitive.
And the trip via HKG might be long but then there are the delightful CX First lounges to visit.
Especially when you consider that flying via SIN, DXB, DOH or AUH or even HKG would all be fully international with no airport to airport transfers.
Whereas flying via Sydney means you have to transfer between terminals in both directions, wasting time you could spend sipping champagne in the lounge.
On return of course it would be even worse, as you would have to collect your luggage in SYD and check it in again for PER.
And there is no champagne in the domestic lounges in either PER or SYD, or even in the international J lounge in SYD.
Nor is there any business class transfer between terminals!

Thanks for the table, I wouldn't have thought of going via HGK.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Thanks for the table, I wouldn't have thought of going via HGK.

Neither would I, I used Cheap'o'air to find the flights.
The CX First lounges would tempt me - although the extra cost would be considerable!

 

[RichardMEL]

JNB is one thing but I would contest it is a relatively small market.

I would also suggest that going to LAX a onestop on QF via SYD/MEL would likely beat SQ via SIN (2 stops there), or CX via HKG.

the bottom line is that PER is a *TINY* origin market and has almost zero connecting pax (excepting folks from BME/KGI and the mining parts). Most places to get to direct from PER require a large widebody aircraft. The economics just don't work very well. It probably works OK for SA as they have feed from all over Africa, and can feed boyond flights on QF or VA to places like ADL/MEL/SYD etc. QF on the other hand could feed into PER, but ex-JNB your options within africa are probably limited to the local BA offshoot (whoose name I forget at the moment). Either way pax from say ADL/BME/KGI/PER still isn't going to be a massive number that could support a widebody, even a 330 on such a mission and folks in MEL it's just as easy to go via SYD, BNE-SYD-JNB is still going to work probably better than BNE-PER-JNB etc

QF flies a 737 to SIN because they have little beyond opportunities (bar EK codeshares and jetstar asia) there while SQ has a massive hub/spoke operation out of SIN. the demand would probably be enough to justify the 777 or 330 that SQ would put on the route.

Wht does VA serve out of PER? probably less than QF/JQ IMHO. their own MEL-JNB crashed and burned (since JNB is a topic here).

sorry to say but it's not so much PER being treated like cough, but PER being pretty small and in the middle of nowhere, and since the mining boom has declined, there's just not as much money or pax in the region to support flights all over.

Hopefully a/c like the 359 and 787s will allow for thinner routes to make sense.

my 2 cents anyway

 

[esseeeayeenn]

PER being pretty small and in the middle of nowhere

But that's just it. PER is much closer to JNB than any other Australian city and actually closer to a lot of destinations (SIN, HKG, DXB, LHR).
The proposal to fly PER-LHR direct is an acknowledgement of this. Although I will believe this if and when it happens.
I'm not arguing that we should have direct flights everywhere. The topic of this thread is much broader than that.
The question of flights to JNB came up because it is a special case having regard to the geography.
I can't see why BNE-PER-JNB or MEL-PER-JNB or ADL-PER-JNB are less viable than BNE-SYD-JNB or MEL-SYD-JNB or ADL-SYD-JNB.
Presumably there will be an expectation that some east coast PAX will travel to PER to connect with the direct service to LHR in future!

 

[RichardMEL]

Fair enough but don't forget:

a) QF has been and likely always be SYD-centric as an extreme
b) there are probably other reasons why a 744 doesn't route via PER such as maintenance (SYD) and routing the birds back east (remember when QF used to run a 743 transcon? those were the days)
c) I still say it's a demand issue. Besides if you are in BNE would you rather a (relatively poor) domestic product for 4-5 hours then another hop to JNB or a short hop to SYD and an international product? I'm sure the vast majority of pax for JNB on QF are going to be on the east coast. I get it, PER makes sense, and if you're in ADL or further west (or even MEL) PER makes sense, but it probably isn't viable - which is why QF had the codeshare on SA in the first place. Clearly losing that was a hit.

I'm not trying to defend QF here, but the JNB discussion is a bit of a diversion from the apparent point of the thread. As you point out PER is closer to SIN/DPS/CGK(ish)/HKG etc but I think QF just doesn't have the fleet to do these things, and a QF pax can go on CX/MH and JQ/QF via SIN. It's better than it was

PER domestic has the best (J) lounge in the network now and has service with 332's with the new product - yes, subing of 737's on flights is a ... &@()72() but they seem to be mostly on non business friendly times in an effort to ensure that most pax flying J for business (ie those who pay the $$$) get the good prodcut. If you're in Y on a $200 fare to MEL/SYD a 737 or 330 is probably more or less the same to endure down the back for most people.

 

[UP4014]

And don't forget wages and consumer buying power is a hell of a lot less than in Aust. Makes it very difficult for a local on a wage (if he is lucky enough to have a wage with 25 to 40% unemployment depending on where you are) to buy a ticket for a holiday in Australia.

 

[Pushka]

Australia Post treats Adelaide like dirt too.

 

[medhead]

I included the word "almost" because I was talking figuratively, not literally.

And I take issue with the use of the word almost. It is not "almost", neither figuratively or literally. It's almost like saying ADL is almost at PER.

But that's just it. PER is much closer to JNB than any other Australian city

Seriously? You've just put together a table that says PER-JNB is 9 to 11 hours flying time. The flying time to other Australian Cities much less than 9 hours. The great circle distance PER-SYD is less than half the distance PER-JNB.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SYD-JNB,+PER-jnb,+PER-ADL,+PER-SYD&DU=mi&E=330

As for ADL-JNB, I'd much rather fly 2 hours to SYD and spend time in a F lounge, then fly 4 hours to PER to go to whatever dirt lounge Qantas give you over there in the wild west.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

And I take issue with the use of the word almost. It is not "almost", neither figuratively or literally. It's almost like saying ADL is almost at PER.



Seriously? You've just put together a table that says PER-JNB is 9 to 11 hours flying time. The flying time to other Australian Cities much less than 9 hours. The great circle distance PER-SYD is less than half the distance PER-JNB.

Great Circle Mapper

As for ADL-JNB, I'd much rather fly 2 hours to SYD and spend time in a F lounge, then fly 4 hours to PER to go to whatever dirt lounge Qantas give you over there in the wild west.

I assume you don't like poetry much either. Silly people using words to create an impression rather than to convey information.
What do they think language is for? Literature? Art? Bah humbug!

I didn't just dream up the figures in the table.
Yes PER-SYD is less than half PER-JNB that's why PER-SYD takes 4.5 hours W-E and 5.5 E-W while JNB-PER takes 9.5 hours and PER-JNB takes 11.5 hours.
That's entirely consistent.

 

[wandering_fred]

...
I didn't just dream up the figures in the table.
Yes PER-SYD is less than half PER-JNB that's why PER-SYD takes 4.5 hours W-E and 5.5 E-W while JNB-PER takes 9.5 hours and PER-JNB takes 11.5 hours.
That's entirely consistent.

And I suspect why almost none of my friends who arrived from South Africa would prefer not to add a (long) side trip to SYD when visiting home.
Aside: It may also be why a fair percentage of the time when you price fares JNB-PER in PEY QF will offer business seats domestically. Funny how it doesn't happen as often pricing exPER...

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

I'm going to call it early. PER-LHR will never happen. PER-DXB possible.

 

[davidj]

I'm slightly confused with this thread title, but I'll bite.

I would argue for the size and market out west Perth has really good links globally, on the OW network. Great coverage out west to ME (Emirates and Qatar) and beyond to Europe etc. South EA is covered well to major centres. Perhaps USA is out of non-stop reach but this is a geographical limitation, or one-stop via Asia or east OZ.

Okay but what about Qantas you say? How can people really argue that Qantas has taken the international market seriously from any city in Oz? Clearly they decided to trim the international market years ago by outsourcing that function to Emirates when they partnered, and cut back on international routes, leaving a bare bones international network. Many people don't consider Qantas for international travel now (due to pitiful product and routes), and this goes to show with middle eastern and Asian carriers having multiple daily flights, with heavy wide body capacity (often with heavy loads), where as Qantas may have one or none.

In any rate Perth could be already well saturated with OW (and SA) seats making it less likely for Qantas to bite. I won't be surprised if they end the PER-SIN route and leaving this to Jetstar to service.

As pax I'm not so worried... as it currently stands if I had to choose flying Qantas or chose another int. carrier from Perth, I know I'd be looking at a non-Qantas bus anyway, for which there are great choices available.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

I'm slightly confused with this thread title, but I'll bite.

I would argue for the size and market out west Perth has really good links globally, on the OW network. Great coverage out west to ME (Emirates and Qatar) and beyond to Europe etc. South EA is covered well to major centres. Perhaps USA is out of non-stop reach but this is a geographical limitation, or one-stop via Asia or east OZ.

Okay but what about Qantas you say? How can people really argue that Qantas has taken the international market seriously from any city in Oz? Clearly they decided to trim the international market years ago by outsourcing that function to Emirates when they partnered, and cut back on international routes, leaving a bare bones international network. Many people don't consider Qantas for international travel now (due to pitiful product and routes), and this goes to show with middle eastern and Asian carriers having multiple daily flights, with heavy wide body capacity (often with heavy loads), where as Qantas may have one or none.

In any rate Perth could be already well saturated with OW (and SA) seats making it less likely for Qantas to bite. I won't be surprised if they end the PER-SIN route and leaving this to Jetstar to service.

As pax I'm not so worried... as it currently stands if I had to choose flying Qantas or chose another int. carrier from Perth, I know I'd be looking at a non-Qantas bus anyway, for which there are great choices available.

The OW routes would be some consolation but the recent fairer and simpler enhancements have downgraded the status credit earning.
MH and QR earn ex-PER is now hardly worth bothering with.

 

[Conrad_S]

Some unkind people might suggest Perth treats the rest of WA like dirt

 

[Mattg]

re JNB - QF used to codeshare on the SA service PER-JNB but that was dropped some time back when SAA finally give QF the flick (or maybe the other way around) but given competing alliances it always did seem a bit odd.

Still QF didn't look for another option probably says much for the booking patterns.

FWIW, I believe the QF/SA codeshare agreement ended because they failed to gain the necessary regulatory approval (possibly from the ACCC?) when it came time to renew a few years ago.