QF 9 loads Ex PER versus Ex MEL

[Max Samuels]

What Air China, China Eastern, China Southern?!

I thought the country that manufactures the world's best baby formula would surely have the world's best airlines too? Surely all the talk about Chinese exceptionalism extends to air travel too?

 

[Max Samuels]

I've done it in and while it is a bit of a walk it's not difficult because at least in MEL the two terminals are in the same building.

Yeah yeah not saying it cannot be done (of course) but I imagine from a booking/ticketing point of view they would prefer not to mix up an international & domestic leg for what is actually a domestic trip... off the top of my head, the ID thing alone could be disasterous.... no one (hardly) ever shows ID for domestic legs...

 

[John in Melbourne]

I've read these posts with interest. I have flown QF9/10 from MEL twice and loved the Dreamliner (flew business - sorry, can't remember the abbreviations). I have just, an hour ago, booked QF9/10 out of MEL for August 2020 and was amazed to see that MEL - PER is in an A330. Very disappointing but now I understand why. Thank you.

 

[downgraded]

was amazed to see that MEL - PER is in an A330

Is it still an international leg?

 

[justinbrett]

I think it's a flawed assumption. For every passenger flying PER-LHR not from MEL - that includes ex PER, but also connections from ADL, BNE, SYD etc - they are seats not taken on MEL-PER.

It's a lot like SYD-LAX-JFK. It doesn't really matter how many people are flying SYD-JFK. There will be people flying SYD-LAX and lots of people flying MEL-JFK and BNE-JFK. In this case, Qantas cares more about PER-LHR as that's where the money is made. Even if there's empty seats MEL-PER, who cares. Sell what you can to domestic pax, but it's not a big deal.

And like SYD-JFK, they might end up de-coupling the segments and operate MEL-PER with a different aircraft, if they can't fill the seats.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

I've read these posts with interest. I have flown QF9/10 from MEL twice and loved the Dreamliner (flew business - sorry, can't remember the abbreviations). I have just, an hour ago, booked QF9/10 out of MEL for August 2020 and was amazed to see that MEL - PER is in an A330. Very disappointing but now I understand why. Thank you.

What date in August 2020?

 

[justinbrett]

I've read these posts with interest. I have flown QF9/10 from MEL twice and loved the Dreamliner (flew business - sorry, can't remember the abbreviations). I have just, an hour ago, booked QF9/10 out of MEL for August 2020 and was amazed to see that MEL - PER is in an A330. Very disappointing but now I understand why. Thank you.

Are you sure you aren't booked on QF777 MEL-PER connecting to QF9? Current timetable has 789 operating QF9 every day in Aug 20.

 

[travellerqff]

I find it interesting to note that sometimes QF8 DFW SYD A380 is scheduled for over 17 hours, and sometimes 300km less than QF9. Could they not have saved capacity on QF9 by changing the SIN stop to PER and having the A380 operate MEL PER LHR?

I think part of the issue is that London doesn’t (or didn’t) make a huge profit with 2 A380s daily, but by swapping out one flight to a B787, the operating cost significantly reduced while still increasing premium cabin fares to increase profitability, even while reducing capacity.

 

[sinophile888]

I am talking about the MEL-PER leg (ie the subject of this thread).

I am a regular on the service and have never seen it full -- generally about 50% in J, PE & Y.

The loads on the PER-LHR leg are high, especially in J. With the small J cabin and large number of upgrade requests for such a long leg, I've never seen J go out less than 90% full.

From memory, there are 42 J seats on QF9/10.

 

[levelnine]

there are 42 J seats on QF9/10.

Which is down from 64 J on the A380, which used to fly the MEL-LHR route. A significant downgrade in capacity.

 

[Max Samuels]

I find it interesting to note that sometimes QF8 DFW SYD A380 is scheduled for over 17 hours, and sometimes 300km less than QF9. Could they not have saved capacity on QF9 by changing the SIN stop to PER and having the A380 operate MEL PER LHR?

I think part of the issue is that London doesn’t (or didn’t) make a huge profit with 2 A380s daily, but by swapping out one flight to a B787, the operating cost significantly reduced while still increasing premium cabin fares to increase profitability, even while reducing capacity.

I think that QF 8 comes back half empty by design to carry more fuel... I'm sure one of our experts has the exact figure!

 

[BD1959]

OK - let's concentrate on MEL-PER-MEL.

QF9 - leaves Melbourne at 16:15 (AEDT) arrives Perth 17:15. Need to be at MEL T2 at least 15:15 - pretty much rules out most business passengers as, with the trip from the CBD you lose most of the afternoon. No chance of inflight wi-fi - another negative for business passengers travelling in Y (yes, we *do* exist!!). Stricter constraints on LAGs ... not really an issue for most experienced travellers, no different to jumping the ditch.

For the leisure traveller who is probably more price conscious, Tiger, JQ and VA all tend to come in cheaper ...

QF10 - leaves PER at 13:25 and arrives in to MEL at 19:55 (AEDT). Again, you've knocked out half of a business day. Again, for the leisure traveller, QF prices well ahead of the competitors.

My guess is that should QF establish a B787 hub at PER the domestic legs would disappear.

Regards,

BD

 

[Max Samuels]

OK - let's concentrate on MEL-PER-MEL.

QF9 - leaves Melbourne at 16:15 (AEDT) arrives Perth 17:15. Need to be at MEL T2 at least 15:15 - pretty much rules out most business passengers as, with the trip from the CBD you lose most of the afternoon. No chance of inflight wi-fi - another negative for business passengers travelling in Y (yes, we *do* exist!!). Stricter constraints on LAGs ... not really an issue for most experienced travellers, no different to jumping the ditch.

For the leisure traveller who is probably more price conscious, Tiger, JQ and VA all tend to come in cheaper ...

QF10 - leaves PER at 13:25 and arrives in to MEL at 19:55 (AEDT). Again, you've knocked out half of a business day. Again, for the leisure traveller, QF prices well ahead of the competitors.

My guess is that should QF establish a B787 hub at PER the domestic legs would disappear.

Regards,

BD

They are all good points (except for the wifi bit!)

 

[kitkatff]

for what it's worth, for me there would also be considerations around travelling in economy (and even premium from what I read) and not wanting to spend 17 hours in a row in a cramped seat, after the MEL-PER leg. I fly MEL/SIN/DXB/Europe in Y (on EK's 380s) to break down the flight time to 7 hours segments. Plus you can stop in SIN and/or DXB easily and still get access to lounges there (WP). And for flights to anywhere except London, SIN or DXB are better.
Of course flying business it's easier to make the 17 hours.

 

[Isochronous]

I thought the country that manufactures the world's best baby formula would surely have the world's best airlines too? Surely all the talk about Chinese exceptionalism extends to air travel too?

Careful now, someone's bound to accuse you of racism for not appreciating aviation with "Chinese characteristics"!

 

[Max Samuels]

I fly MEL/SIN/DXB/Europe in Y (on EK's 380s) to break down the flight time to 7 hours segments.

Actually that is an awesome idea. And if you fly on the QF numbers you get more SCs because the flight numbers change? I assume they do?

 

[justinbrett]

My guess is that should QF establish a B787 hub at PER the domestic legs would disappear.

I think the long term plan for Qantas was to operate a couple of flights (eg MEL-PER-LHR, BNE-PER-CDG and SYD-PER-FRA). Time it so they all stop in PER at the same time. That would allow SYD, MEL & BNE one stop connections to LHR, CDG and FRA. International connections so they can utilise F lounges, customs etc. On top of that you have domestic connections like ADL, CBR, OOL, DRW etc.

I think a lot of the domestic only passengers don't want the hassle of International airports (increased check in times, liquid restrictions, more prone to delays etc).

 

[Max Samuels]

Sort of off-topic, but not really..... does anyone remember when/if there ever was talk about establishing a super airport hub in the ASP vicinity? During the 90s when I did a brief stint in Alice Springs, the talk in the bars by the locals was that there was discussion at the Fed gov level about creating a massive international airport in the area, that would just feed domestic flights to all Australian capitals. It would be 24/7.

I was too young and not interested in flying to really give it any thought at the time, but just recently I remembered.... and thought if anyone knew, someone here surely would....

 

[esseeeayeenn]

My guess is that should QF establish a B787 hub at PER the domestic legs would disappear.

They wanted to set up a hub but with domestic feeder routes as below.

I think the long term plan for Qantas was to operate a couple of flights (eg MEL-PER-LHR, BNE-PER-CDG and SYD-PER-FRA). Time it so they all stop in PER at the same time. That would allow SYD, MEL & BNE one stop connections to LHR, CDG and FRA. International connections so they can utilise F lounges, customs etc. On top of that you have domestic connections like ADL, CBR, OOL, DRW etc.

However Perth Airport fought hard to stop QF using T3/T4 for international flights and only conceded to allow QF9/10 after intercession from the state government.
That dispute has continued with them refusing permission for PER-CDG to operate from T3/T4 and with QF refusing to pay some fees.
Not taking sides but I have to deal with Perth Airport in a commercial context and I have often found it difficult.
Although it has been easier this year.
QF doesn't want to make PAX take a bus from T3/T4 to T1 to transfer from a domestic sector to the international sector.
And they aren't ready to move their domestic operations from T3/T4 to T1 which frankly isn't ready for them anyway.

 

[justinbrett]

Sort of off-topic, but not really..... does anyone remember when/if there ever was talk about establishing a super airport hub in the ASP vicinity? During the 90s when I did a brief stint in Alice Springs, the talk in the bars by the locals was that there was discussion at the Fed gov level about creating a massive international airport in the area, that would just feed domestic flights to all Australian capitals. It would be 24/7.

I was too young and not interested in flying to really give it any thought at the time, but just recently I remembered.... and thought if anyone knew, someone here surely would....

I've never heard that. In any case, the world has moved on from the hub and spoke model. Also Alice isn't a great place for an international airport - it gets too hot (and thus hard to get heavies airborne). QF often has to offload pax ASP-DRW when it gets too hot. Good thing the government's no longer in the business of operating airports or airlines.

Well look at that - post 1000.