QF B737 Replacement Competition

[Flying Fox]

It was also a case of taking long term customers for granted.

Back when QF ordered the A330/380, Boeing had also been in the competition with a mix of 767-400 and 777. QF was well aware of what other airlines were being charged for aircraft, but Boeings offer was much more expensive. They’d assumed that as an all Boeing airline, it was unlikely that they’d change. So, they thought it reasonable that QF would pay lots more than someone like Emirates (for instance).

I had no idea that Boeing didn't give QF 'market rates' for the B777.

I always wondered why QF never ordered the B777 considering that QF was one of the customers who Boeing asked for design input.

 

[moa999]

I always wondered why QF never ordered the B777 considering that QF was one of the customers who Boeing asked for design input.

I thought that Qantas had ordered the A380 in competition to more 744ERs (the 777 was also in the mix but a paper plane).
And then got the first 330s as compensation for initial A380 delays.

Then there really wasn't space for the 777s until recently.

 

[jb747]

Boeing was pushing the 747-8 at the time, and that was very much a paper plane. The 777 has existed since the early 90s, so a mix of 200s and 300s would have been possible. The idea with the 767-400s was to refit the coughpits of the 767-300s to make them the same across the fleet. It would have then been the same coughpit across most of the 767s and the 777s. Obviously they’d have been after CASA to approve pilots flying both types, which, I think, is one of the dumber things allowed by regulators.

QF was quite happy with the 747ERs and actually tried to buy some more, but Boeing wouldn’t make them and really wanted QF to go with some 747-8s.

Some of the 330s were a sweeten the pot deal, but overall most were simply purchases.

The final mix if they’d gone Boeing, would have been mostly 777s.

 

[ajw373]

If stories of the time are to believed Qantas had selected and been placed a LOI for A320’s back in 2001.

But the twin impacts of the Ansett collapse which saw an urgent need for extra capacity and 911 which left a load of 737’s in particular unwanted and rapidly available Qantas did a last minute change to the 738.

And those A320’s ended up being with Jetstar a few years later thanks to another 2001 event, which was Qantas buying Impulse which ended up being morphed Jetstar.

 

[Flying Fox]

Well Boeing are working very had to do deals on the B737-MAX.

Southwest Airlines Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX Jets, Plus 155 Options

SEATTLE, March 29, 2021 — Boeing [NYSE:BA] and Southwest Airlines today announced the carrier will continue to build its business around the 737 MAX family with a new order for 100 airplanes and...

boeing.mediaroom.com

Southwest Airlines Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX Jets, Plus 155 Options

Deal raises Southwest’s 737 MAX commitment to more than 600 jets between the 737-7 and larger 737-8...

 

[jb747]

Southwest almost had to go with it. They are the biggest cause of the 737's problems.

Anyway QF will only need one or two aircraft.....

 

[Flying Fox]

This is back in the news again -

Qantas boss says home quarantine must be temporary fix

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says home quarantine should be a short-lived solution to opening Australia’s international border, and the country should lift all isolation requirements as soon as possible to restart tourism and business travel.

www.smh.com.au

It’s Airbus vs Boeing in Qantas’ order for over 100 new jets

The massive domestic fleet renewal program could be worth as much as $14 billion at list price.

www.executivetraveller.com

Good timing with manufacturers are extra hungry for orders.

 

[RichardMEL]

Guessing Boeing will be desperate to retain a QF 737 order and will more or less give away MAXes at this point.. and QF by the same token needs bargain basement prices given their own financial situation (like most airlines in the world)..... QF can put pressure on both the big guys because they have feet in both camps.. eg to Boeing "We have this A350 order for Sunrise plus a fleet of A32x for JQ with some LR's in the future.. so make us an offer we can't refuse or else CCQ looks great" and to Airbus "We love the 787's and our current fleet of 737's which all our crews are proficient with and have served well.. maybe you can bundle something up for the Sunrise 350 order and XLR's to get a A32x order over the line..."

Play them off each other and then go with what they wanted all along

 

[jakeseven7]

This is back in the news again -

Qantas boss says home quarantine must be temporary fix

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says home quarantine should be a short-lived solution to opening Australia’s international border, and the country should lift all isolation requirements as soon as possible to restart tourism and business travel.

www.smh.com.au

It’s Airbus vs Boeing in Qantas’ order for over 100 new jets

The massive domestic fleet renewal program could be worth as much as $14 billion at list price.

www.executivetraveller.com

Good timing with manufacturers are extra hungry for orders.

Agree, both will drop their pants to get this order, Boeing especially so with the terrible reputation hangover from the 737 Max disaster.

 

[OZDUCK]

Agree, both will drop their pants to get this order, Boeing especially so with the terrible reputation hangover from the 737 Max disaster.

But recently Ryanair asked Boeing to do exactly that and Boeing refused to do so. Their willingness to engage in 'fire sale' pricing might well be overstated.

Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing over price dispute

Ryanair Group CEO Michael O'Leary said talks with Boeing have stalled out over price differences for a large order of the U.S. plane maker's 737 MAX 10 jets.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Must...Fly!]

But recently Ryanair asked Boeing to do exactly that and Boeing refused to do so. Their willingness to engage in 'fire sale' pricing might well be overstated.

Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing over price dispute

Ryanair Group CEO Michael O'Leary said talks with Boeing have stalled out over price differences for a large order of the U.S. plane maker's 737 MAX 10 jets.

www.cnbc.com

They'll come crawling back...(Boeing)

 

[OZDUCK]

They'll come crawling back...(Boeing)

That is certainly possible but, as I recall, Airbus didn't even bother to tender for the last few purchasing rounds by Ryanair. They apparently believed that the airline and especially its public face were not trustworthy negotiators. This leaves Boeing as being the only provider left and I think there is still a memory of O'Leary's unseemly crowing about "raping Boeing" with one of their big orders - "When Ryanair secured a knockdown deal for 100 aircraft from the aircraft maker just months after the 2001 terror attacks in the US, O'Leary famously said that Ryanair had "raped Boeing"."

 

[ChrisMars]

Anyone with safety and/or moral concern if Qantas pick boeing 737 max? Or is it behind us now?

 

[Franky]

Anyone with safety and/or moral concern if Qantas pick boeing 737 max? Or is it behind us now?

Personally, it would always be in the back of my mind. If and when the need arises to look at the possibility, I would also be looking for earlier or later flights with a different aircraft.

 

[jakeseven7]

Anyone with safety and/or moral concern if Qantas pick boeing 737 max? Or is it behind us now?

Well you can give it a go with VA2 for a bit when they get them, see if you land in one piece….

 

[Big John]

Personally, it would always be in the back of my mind. If and when the need arises to look at the possibility, I would also be looking for earlier or later flights with a different aircraft.

Agree. It's hard to forget all the news surrounding the MAX.

Given that QF has already ordered A321XLRs, wouldn't it make sense for QF to also order A320s and A220s ? Isn't there some commonality between these aircraft (parts / avionics etc) ? Or are they all completely different ?

 

[ChrisMars]

Agree. It's hard to forget all the news surrounding the MAX.

Given that QF has already ordered A321XLRs, wouldn't it make sense for QF to also order A320s and A220s ? Isn't there some commonality between these aircraft (parts / avionics etc) ? Or are they all completely different ?

No real commonality, due to the fact the A220 was designed by Bombardier.

 

[Scarlett]

QF will lease more E190s off Alliance. And then more. And, "because market conditions are so different to what we expected"; some more.



And before you know it, there's the bulk of your domestic fleet.

Mainline can crew the 330s.

This game is easy. I should work for QF!

 

[jakeseven7]

QF will lease more E190s off Alliance. And then more. And, "because market conditions are so different to what we expected"; some more.

View attachment 261347

And before you know it, there's the bulk of your domestic fleet.

Mainline can crew the 330s.

This game is easy. I should work for QF!

They do look cool

 

[jb747]

Mainline can crew the 330s.

This game is easy. I should work for QF!

Mainline already crew the 330s. You're talking about retrenching about 1200 pilots.

It's interesting how the culture of QF, is so quickly discounted in the rush for cheap. As I've said many times, a CEO can only impact an airline safety culture in a negative way. The positive is built up over decades, though it's pretty easy, and quickly, destroyed.