QF-EK broken promises

[Himeno]

The apparent need to dis-continue through checking of luggage with One World partners on separate tickets may be an indication that customer preferences on the Kangaroo Routes is more significant than some airlines would like to admit.

The change to oneworld cross ticket interlining is down to BA attempting to prevent people from booking a cheap one way UK-EU flight, then turning around to a cheaper ex-EU long haul connecting back through LHR.

 

[Quickstatus]

JAL really isn't too shabby as a oneworld alternative.

Neither is AY.

The QF/EK tieup has brought to the fore the possibilities out there including AY, JAL.

AJ himself said last week the number of people flying to the EU on a QF code has increased 4x. Sure, only some of those are actually on QF metal, but its still a larger share of the pie in a very competitive market.

Qf a virtual airline that will fly you virtually anywhere.
Im sure AJ will not mind therefore if people start saying they fly Flight Centre, after all Flight centre retails/resells airline tickets and they give out baggage tags that says Flight Centre..

 

[TomVexille]

JAL doesn't fly to LHR from HND. BA8 is well timed to connect from QF25 though.

Yes they do. We flew JL43 recently (and covered it in our Trip Report).

 

[tm.smile]

Qf a virtual airline that will fly you virtually anywhere.
Im sure AJ will not mind therefore if people start saying they fly Flight Centre, after all Flight centre retails/resells airline tickets and they give out baggage tags that says Flight Centre..

Hmmm virtual airlines don't share revenue with the operating carrier do they? QF have also utilised their aircraft in other regions to spread their wings further to places. Why would you ply a competition heavy route that makes little to no money for yourself when a similar partner can do the same and share the spoils with you? Would we prefer QF fly all those routes themselves? Sure. I'd also like to be ably to fly F all the time, but economics dictate otherwise.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Hmmm virtual airlines don't share revenue with the operating carrier do they? QF have also utilised their aircraft in other regions to spread their wings further to places. Why would you ply a competition heavy route that makes little to no money for yourself when a similar partner can do the same and share the spoils with you? Would we prefer QF fly all those routes themselves? Sure. I'd also like to be ably to fly F all the time, but economics dictate otherwise.

No. However, I would like them to either operate a few flights on the route with their own metal, or organise an agreement which provides all their frequent flyers with all the equivalent benefits on the code share or "virtual QF" flights. Upgrades with points being the major gripe.

 

[medhead]

My list is not entirely a list of losses: I did add CD between LHR & Aus which is the better of the two airlines' offerings (even if the promise of rolling it out to the rest of the long haul destinations did not happen/persist).

IMHO & experience the the EK-QF tie-up is mostly losses and failures to deliver the best of the offerings: hence my list of my observations and what matters to me. The intention was that others, who could see gains, could add them to list. Instead of doing so many just attacked me, made false assumptions about my beliefs and attributed prejudices to me without ever having met me or bothering to ask me. These people's mind-reading skills need serious work. I have no problem with others thinking that the EK-QF tie-up is the best thing since sliced bread. I, and many others, do not.

I think the suggestion that people who disagree with some of your written posts in thread love the EK-QF tie-up would fit into the mind-reading category. I think perhaps you've made a judgement based on the writings of those people, in the same way they may have done from your writings.

Pointing out that of the changes you've listed are more about general cost cutting isn't really the same as loving for the EK-QF tie-up.

There is an unlaying point about your writings being the basis for people to get to know you. I'm not sure people need to meet before they can do such a thing.

 

[ajw373]

Qf a virtual airline that will fly you virtually anywhere.

The reality of course is their route cutting (to Europe) has paid dividends and now QFi in particular is making money new a/c and potentially new routes are in the offing.

Another reality is double hop flights cost a fortune to run and use a lot of aircraft. Besides BA who are down to one flight a day, opeated by mixed crew (cheap contract crew) every other European airline has pulled out of direct Australian flights. Kind of speaks volumes.

Is the EK partnership working, who knows, but what is for certain is Qantas has been able to concentrate much more on Asia and the Americas where there is no to little competition from the ME3 and where they can make some cash. Airlines afterall are not public transport, the are (meant to be) money making businesses for their shareholders.

 

[ajw373]

No. However, I would like them to either operate a few flights on the route with their own metal, or organise an agreement which provides all their frequent flyers with all the equivalent benefits on the code share or "virtual QF" flights. Upgrades with points being the major gripe.

Qantas still has QF1/2 and QF9/10 for you to fly on to London. To Europe the only route they have stop flying and handed to EK is to Frankfurt. They have of course stopped BKK-LHR, HKG-LHR and SIN-LHR, but not handed them to EK though.

 

[Quickstatus]

Hmmm virtual airlines don't share revenue with the operating carrier do they? QF have also utilised their aircraft in other regions to spread their wings further to places. Why would you ply a competition heavy route that makes little to no money for yourself when a similar partner can do the same and share the spoils with you? Would we prefer QF fly all those routes themselves? Sure. I'd also like to be ably to fly F all the time, but economics dictate otherwise.

Not saying QF should metal every route their passengers wish to fly. Only just to highlight AJ's logic fail.

TA such as flight centre do share some of the revenue generated by the ticket sale.

 

[ajw373]

Not saying QF should metal every route their passengers wish to fly. Only just to highlight AJ's logic fail.

What logic fail? The one that turned QFi from a loss making basket case to a profit maker? The one they are now investing in by buying new aircraft and looking at new routes. Strange description of a fail.

 

[TonyHancock]

The change to oneworld cross ticket interlining is down to BA attempting to prevent people from booking a cheap one way UK-EU flight, then turning around to a cheaper ex-EU long haul connecting back through LHR.

I'm having one of my many "dim" days but I really don't understand this logic.

Oneworld flights from the UK to the EU, other than BA, are few and far between, and any long haul flights connecting back through LHR will be BA. AY to HEL might be one option but the vast majority of positioning flights to take advantage of BA's ex EU long haul pricing will be with BA.

 

[Quickstatus]

What logic fail? The one that turned QFi from a loss making basket case to a profit maker? The one they are now investing in by buying new aircraft and looking at new routes. Strange description of a fail.

Again agree, but you completely miss what Im trying to point out.

You are arguing that going virtual has its benefits - which I do not doubt. But I was not arguing about the pros and cons of going virtual..

Again...... AJs statement about increase in "QF passengers" when some/many? are "virtual" . Same logic - Flight centre does not fly any routes, just sells the tickets and shares revenue with airlines. They might as well be flying Flight centre who have been making lots of money too!

I am the first to fly a Qf codeshare - recently did QF8404 because the upgrade possibilities were better on an EK airplane than a QF airplane. Best of both worlds QF SC/points and checkthrough and EK policy of filling every seat.

 

[ajw373]

I'm having one of my many "dim" days but I really don't understand this logic.

Oneworld flights from the UK to the EU, other than BA, are few and far between, and any long haul flights connecting back through LHR will be BA. AY to HEL might be one option but the vast majority of positioning flights to take advantage of BA's ex EU long haul pricing will be with BA.

The bit you are missing is can be significantly cheaper to fly from say Dublin to Sydney via LHR all on BA compared to flying LHR to Sydney.

Two reasons. The Heathrow passenger charge is cheaper for flights to Europe compares to long haul and cheap for transfer passengers secondly BA's pricing ex Europe is also cheaper to attack more passengers.

So what people would do is buy a cheap ticket to Dublin(or any close by European city) on Ba then through check back to LHR. They would get to Dublin then hop back on the same plan back to Heathrow then onwards long haul. Often on the return they would have a stop over in London and then fail to turn up for the last leg the next day.

BA tried to charge people who missed their last legs the fare as if it were Ex LHR but were stopped from doing so. They also threatened to charge travel agents the cost of they booked fares to do this.

That said other boards have said that this change is not about stopping this issue. BA could have done it themselves without a OneWorld change. Though interestingly ublike qantas BA is now allowing through checking even on to their own flights if separate PNRs.

The change is more to do with putting the risk and potential cost of miss connections back on the consumer who are increasingly buying seperate tickets at cheaper prices. End result airline wears the risk not consumer. Whereas buy a through ticket or through agent the cost of the risk is factored into the price through higher fares.

 

[TonyHancock]

The bit you are missing is can be significantly cheaper to fly from say Dublin to Sydney via LHR all on BA compared to flying LHR to Sydney.

It would be fair to say that after completing five ex EU trips, from BGO and OSL, to Australia, this year, and two more to go, I am perhaps a little more on top of this than it might appear.

What I don't understand is what this has to do with the claim that BA is behind the removal of oneworld interlining to discourage those maximising it's Ex EU fares. This might be a thought if pax were flying positioning flights into the EU on another one world carrier but for the vast majority of cases they are not, so oneworld interlining is not an issue.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What logic fail? The one that turned QFi from a loss making basket case to a profit maker? The one they are now investing in by buying new aircraft and looking at new routes. Strange description of a fail.

Planes years behind the competition. Fuel guzzling aircraft (747s instead of 77Ws). Sacking thousands of staff. Can't get through to the call centre. Charging for exit rows. Massive fuel surcharges on award tickets. Fewer points under simpler and fairer. Cutting chauffeur drive. Bare bones catering (toasted sandwich and inexpensive sparkling wine) on a SYD-MEL return business class fare of close to $2000 return.

Fail? You might be making money while the price of fuel is down, but how do you compete when it goes back up again? What's left of the airline?

 

[ajw373]

Planes years behind the competition. Fuel guzzling aircraft (747s instead of 77Ws). Sacking thousands of staff. Can't get through to the call centre. Charging for exit rows. Massive fuel surcharges on award tickets. Fewer points under simpler and fairer. Cutting chauffeur drive. Bare bones catering (toasted sandwich and inexpensive sparkling wine) on a SYD-MEL return business class fare of close to $2000 return.

Fail? You might be making money while the price of fuel is down, but how do you compete when it goes back up again? What's left of the airline?

Its been shown that fuel price alone is not the reason for the turn around. The reason is concentrating resources into Asia and America where coin is to be made.

You have of course neglected to mention the upgrade of the A330 fleet to one of the best regional configured aircraft out there and those ancient A380's that are years behind competitors (only because they got in 3rd). And yep some planes may be old(ish) but the fleet list says the bulk are otherwise. And even if some aircraft like the 747's are less fuel efficent that say 777's as you said fuel price is down...

That said none of this has anything to do with the EK partnership does it?

 

[ajw373]

What I don't understand is what this has to do with the claim that BA is behind the removal of oneworld interlining to discourage those maximising it's Ex EU fares. This might be a thought if pax were flying positioning flights into the EU on another one world carrier but for the vast majority of cases they are not, so oneworld interlining is not an issue.

Exactly said as much myself. BA could have stopped this anyway by refusing to interline to themselves, which they have done anyway.

True reason is the cost to airlines of passengers booking separate flights to save coin, but transferring the risk of miss-connections back on the accepting airline by the airline through checking. Once through checked it is not just the bag the accepting airline is responsible for. On a through ticket the cost of that risk is factored into the ticket price, hence why can be more expensive but separate booking the risk isn't factored in.

Though getting on topic QF and EK are allowing it, but guess due to their cost sharing agreement the risk is somewhat covered, same with QF to QF interlining.

 

[pottsy]

Re: QF-EK broken promises
My biggest issues with the QF/EK alliance are not being able to upgrade with points and not being able to buy and/or preallocate an exit row seat on EK! (Given Qantas metal flies practically nowhere now the 'partnership' should 'at least' allow these).

 

[katiebell]

Sometimes I wish I could fly QF to LHR via HND, but if it doesn't make commercial sense, I'm not going to begrudge them. Clearly the partnership is allowing them to be profitible to the EU. AJ himself said last week the number of people flying to the EU on a QF code has increased 4x. Sure, only some of those are actually on QF metal, but its still a larger share of the pie in a very competitive market.

again with the pork

MEL-LHR via SIN is closest to the great circle route

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Qantas still has QF1/2 and QF9/10 for you to fly on to London. To Europe the only route they have stop flying and handed to EK is to Frankfurt. They have of course stopped BKK-LHR, HKG-LHR and SIN-LHR, but not handed them to EK though.

QF 1/2 and QF 9/10 aren't much use to me. We don't all live in Sydney or Melbourne.