QF422 [go around experience]

[esseeeayeenn]

I've seen cases where the tower is in the cloud, but it's clear underneath....and others where the fog starts below the tower.

The issues are the quality of the navigation aids, the runway lighting, the aircraft equipment, and the pilot qualifications. ATC doesn't really get into the act.

In the case of my trip to Vanuatu, I was told the issue was aircraft equipment. Apparently Air Vanuatu has the equipment required to land at VLI in low level cloud.
Obviously a worthwhile investment for them as VLI is their hub and they only have one B737 to equip.
However, Virgin lacks this equipment. Understandable as VLI is not their hub and they would need to equip a number of B737s which might fly the route.

 

[straitman]

In the case of my trip to Vanuatu, I was told the issue was aircraft equipment. Apparently Air Vanuatu has the equipment required to land at VLI in low level cloud.
Obviously a worthwhile investment for them as VLI is their hub and they only have one B737 to equip.
However, Virgin lacks this equipment. Understandable as VLI is not their hub and they would need to equip a number of B737s which might fly the route.

As jb747 states though it is more than just fitting equipment to aircraft. The pilots must be trained for the equipment to be used so there are quite a few permutations that can come into play..

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Yes. In this instance after the flight the pilot told me that aircraft (non)equipment was the crucial factor.

 

[jb747]

Looking at the Jeppesen web site, Vanuatu doesn't have a precision approach aid. There's NDB, VOR, DME, LOC (localiser). No glide path, which means no ILS. The best approaches are via GPS (GNSS), but even then the lowest is only about 150' better than the VOR.

Virgin would certainly have all of the older aids available. Must admit I'm surprised if they don't have GNSS available to them. Is the Virgin that files to the islands actually the same mob as V Aus, or are they a subset (different company)?

 

[esseeeayeenn]

I believe the flights to the pacific islands were operated by Virgin NZ or Virgin Samoa.
They were older aircraft with PE seats.
Not sure about the current situation since they started using aircraft with the J refit.

 

[jb747]

I believe the flights to the pacific islands were operated by Virgin NZ or Virgin Samoa.
They were older aircraft with PE seats.
Not sure about the current situation since they started using aircraft with the J refit.

The J refit (?) doesn't have anything to do with what's in the coughpit...though lie flat seats would be nice.

GNSS is slowly becoming pervasive. It provides a much better approach than any of the older types, and can be upgraded to allow precision approaches (this requires some additional equipment on the ground). I haven't seen the Boeing application of this in aircraft with a HUD, but the Airbus version emulates an ILS, and makes the procedures pretty much identical.
SmartPath (Ground Based Augmentation System) | Airservices

There will be overlap for years, but eventually I'd expect all of the VORs and NDB to disappear. In this instance, the new system is simpler, cheaper, and safer.

 

[harvyk]

The J refit (?) doesn't have anything to do with what's in the coughpit...though lie flat seats would be nice.

GNSS is slowly becoming pervasive. It provides a much better approach that any of the older types, and can be upgraded to allow precision approaches (this requires some additional equipment on the ground). I haven't see the Boeing application of this in aircraft with a HUD, but the Airbus version emulates an ILS, and makes the procedures pretty much identical.
SmartPath (Ground Based Augmentation System) | Airservices

There will be overlap for years, but eventually I'd expect all of the VORs and NDB to disappear. In this instance, the new system is simpler, cheaper, and safer.

Whilst obviously seating config does not have anything to do with equipment up front, in general do you find that aircraft with cabin refreshes also have the best equipment on the flight deck, or is there no correlation?

 

[jb747]

Whilst obviously seating config does not have anything to do with equipment up front, in general do you find that aircraft with cabin refreshes also have the best equipment on the flight deck, or is there no correlation?

No relationship. Aircraft go through many cabin updates during their lives, but virtually nothing changes in the coughpit. Perhaps the crew...

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The J refit (?) doesn't have anything to do with what's in the coughpit...though lie flat seats would be nice.

Obviously not.
The significance of the refit is that aircraft which used to be differently configured are now interchangeable.
So I do not know if the pacific island routes are still exclusively operated by Virgin NZ and Virgin Samoa, or if Virgin Australia or Virgin Australia International now operate them.
(Though I suspect they would be reluctant to use higher paid Australian crews on these routes.)
Nor do I know whether the way in which aircraft are allocated has changed.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

A rejected landing, is a go around that is started AFTER touchdown (but before reverse thrust is selected). Very rare.

Like this one.....

https://vid.me/vQ4Q

This was taken on EK432 from SIN-BNE. We initially made an approach to RWY01 in BNE. Did the rejected landing and made another approach to RWY19. The PIC indicated the maximum downwind component (20 knots) was exceeded during the final stages of the approach - hence the go around. From the untrained eye it also looked as though we may have landed a little long....

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Like this one.....

https://vid.me/vQ4Q

This was taken on EK432 from SIN-BNE. We initially made an approach to RWY01 in BNE. Did the rejected landing and made another approach to RWY19. The PIC indicated the maximum downwind component (20 knots) was exceeded during the final stages of the approach - hence the go around. From the untrained eye it also looked as though we may have landed a little long....

Wish the video was a bit longer ...

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Wish the video was a bit longer ...

https://vid.me/qfxx

Here is the longer version.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Thanks, I just wanted to hear the turbines rev up after the first contact with the runway.
Love that sound.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Had a go around on a SYD-BNE flight about 2 months ago. Captain came over advising there were some "congestion" issues.
My money is on the idiots at ATC who now run Brisbane arrivals out of Canberra.
It was fine, apart from the removal of my partner's fingernails from my arm.

 

[mjgriffo]

Isn't Brisbane Terminal Control in the Control Tower complex at Brisbane airport (along with Brisbane Centre)?

 

[Milboo]

I've only ever experienced one a few years ago now.

Early morning landing in Melbourne with heavy fog. Heading into land and sudden power up. Pilot advised that it had been clear but as they came in, they could not see the end of the runway so pulled up.

We circled for some time before we diverted to Canberra for refuelling, held on the ground there for ages as a number of other planes had also diverted and there was a queue before heading back to Melbourne.

Sadly we landed about 15 mins before my meeting ended so I turned around and came back to Sydney!

 

[yohy?!]

It's a go around, not an abort.

They are common enough. My records show about .5% for the real world, though the simulator is about 50%. Basically they aren't any different to whatever you experienced during take off, though listening to some reports it sounds like you lead into them with a loop or two. Of roughly 20 go arounds in the past 20 years, none have been in the A380, a couple in the 747, and most in the 767. 85% occurred in Oz. 80% at Sydney. If you want to play with percentages a bit more...over that period, roughly 20% (each) of my approaches were in the 380 and 747, with the remainder in the 767. Sydney would be at the bottom of roughly 20% of landings.

Sad that I never got a go-around in the 'muscle car' 767

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Over the last few years the ones I can remember are:

EK777-3xx SIN-BNE (Rejected Landing) - RWY01 see video uploaded a few posts prior
QF388-8xx SIN-SYD (Go Around) - early morning approach onto 34L and we encountered a flap configuration issue where one flap extended differently with the flaps locking into place. We went out to sea off Sydney and joined the hold. The tech crew reconfigured the aircraft for a successful approach and landing onto 34L this time at a slightly higher speed and a more "nose high attitude"
QF737-8xx AKL-MEL (Go Around) - RWY16 flap configuration issue
QF737-8xx SYD-BNE (Go Around) - RWY01 approach was discontinued due to an approaching storm and lightning. We held to the NW for about 45 minutes and made a successful approach to RWY19
AA737-8xx LGA-MCO (Go Around) - Performed a go around on short final. PIC advised they had wind shear indications. We went around and made a successful landing from the opposite direction about 20 minutes later.
CX777-3xx HKG-JFK (Rejected Takeoff) - RWY07R given the we were close to MTOW we had to wait sometime for the brakes to cool before we could take another shot at it
LANA320 ASU-EZE (Go Around) - Not sure the exact reason. I cannot understand Spanish
JAL767-3xx NRT-KUL (Go Around) - MAS 747 hadn't vacated the runway in time.
QF767-3xx MEL-CBR (Go Around) - Approach to RWY17 wasn't stabilised so we climbed at went about 10-15 south of the field and made ILS approach onto RWY35
QF767-3xx SYD-MEL (Go Around) - Approach to RWY16 into a howling southerly. The approach wasn't stabilised as required so we joined the hold and made another successful approach about 25 minutes later.
QF767-3xx SYD-MEL (Go Around) - VOR Approach to RWY34 into a strong northerly with an approaching southerly. There were numerous power changes during the final stages of the approach especially as we made the series of right hand turns after tracking overhead Essendon. The PIC elected to go around. We were in the hold for about 45 minutes for the southerly to kick in and we then made a successful approach to RWY16
QF737-8xx ADL-MEL (Go Around) - ILS Approach to RWY16. Made three approaches over a 60 minute period. Other aircraft had made it in between each of our approaches. After the last approach we then headed back to ADL and topped up with fuel and then headed back to Melbourne for a successful approach.
QF737-8xx SYD-ZQN (Go Around) - RNP Approach to RWY05. On a great day this is a spectacular approach. On this occasion we didn't become visual to continue with the landing. Made two approaches over a 60 minute period. We eventually went to Christchurch with passengers being bussed to Queenstown.
QF Dash 8 SYD-CBR (Aborted Take off) - We lined up on RWY16R for an intersection departure with an aircraft on long finals for the same runway. Delays in the preceeding landing aircraft vacating the runway via a high speed taxiway required us to vacate the runway and allow the aircraft now on short final to land with us joining the queue again.

Various go arounds at other inter US (LAX, BOS, ORD, MIA) / inter European (LHR, NCE, LIS). I get the feeling go arounds, etc are routine for the guys on the flight deck and far more exciting for the guys down the back.

 

[jb747]

Please don't fly with me.....

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Please don't fly with me.....

The only QF 388 issue was the assymetric flap extension on approach into YSSY. I typically do on average up to 100 sectors per year internationally and domestic across multiple airlines. The above details represent the last 5-6 years of travel - say 20 issues in total. Not sure what the % of aborted take offs /rejected landings, etc are but 3-4% seems low to me but this would most likely depend on a number of variables including what airports / routes you fly. The only "incident" I was onboard for was over 10 years ago when door L2 got ripped off a brand new A330-300 on pushback in YSSY. So for the amount of flying I do I think my averages are ok - some tech crew may disagree. While were at it my most unusual flying experience was when I contracted to CDSC (around 25 years ago now) working on the RAN DDG's and getting winched into the back of Sea King off the coast of NSW for a 45 minute flight back to NAS Nowra....