QF44 last night - not a great flight to be on

[VHOEJ]

This is the perfect example of how/where 'some' flexibility is needed with the SYD curfew.


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Exactly. Another embarassment to SYD - and the intial delay wasn't caused by weather, but delays caused by a lot of traffic holding to be allowed to land. Another mismanagement from what is meant to be the country's main airport. How embarassing.

 

[AVC]

If the time difference between making the curfew or not is only a minute, could the pilot have just feigned radio interference, or headset malfunction for that 60 seconds?

And if he knew it was going to be tight, couldn't he just gun it a bit?

 

[N860CR]

Just to clarify a point, ATC can't refuse permission for the aircraft to land after 11pm. It's up to the captain to decide.

I don't recall what the fine is, however a few carriers have paid it instead of diverting (Gulf Air being one when they used to come here). It was quite a funny recording, ATC asked for the aircrafts intentions and the crew very simply replied "we are landing".

Qantas must have decided that its joy worth the fine/fight.


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[markis10]

Just to clarify a point, ATC can't refuse permission for the aircraft to land after 11pm. It's up to the captain to decide.

I don't recall what the fine is, however a few carriers have paid it instead of diverting (Gulf Air being one when they used to come here). It was quite a funny recording, ATC asked for the aircrafts intentions and the crew very simply replied "we are landing".

Qantas must have decided that its joy worth the fine/fight.


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The fine is up to a maximum 550k per instance.

 

[dfcatch]

The fine is up to a maximum 550k per instance.

I wouldn't like that "Please Explain"........

 

[maninblack]

So is this right? The aircraft is told by ATC that they should just make it in time so the pilot decides to push on. He's on final approach and fully configured and ATC tells him he's going to just miss the curfew time, literally by a minute. Then ATC says what do you want to do Captain. (land and risk a huge fine or go around and head to Melbourne?) Wow!

Surely there need to be some common sense application of the rules especially when a plane is just a few miles from touchdown which should not be on the head of the pilot.

 

[Simo]

This is the perfect example of how/where 'some' flexibility is needed with the SYD curfew.

I agree they need to have some exemptions for the curfew and this is a classic example of why.

 

[lovestotravel]

So is this right? The aircraft is told by ATC that they should just make it in time so the pilot decides to push on. He's on final approach and fully configured and ATC tells him he's going to just miss the curfew time, literally by a minute. Then ATC says what do you want to do Captain. (land and risk a huge fine or go around and head to Melbourne?) Wow!

That's basically it and listening to the ATC recording the Captain barked back that he's going back to MEL.......

Emirates earlier this year decided to take off after the curfew... I assume they would have weighed up the possible fine of $550k vs the expense of having the A380 stuck in SYD overnight and then further impacting other flights.

No idea if they ever received that fine though.

Emirates defends curfew breach | Travel Weekly

“We had a full load, about 550 on board, and there is no way we could have found accommodation in Sydney for that number of people at that time of night,” Brown said. “It would have created huge inconvenience for our passengers so the decision was taken to depart.”

 

[anat0l]

Surely there need to be some common sense application of the rules especially when a plane is just a few miles from touchdown which should not be on the head of the pilot.

Meanwhile, someone on the ground (or 111 km away ) is going to note that errant landing at 20 seconds after 11pm. Next day cue the reported incident, line up with ATC records and subsequent breaking of legislation followed by airline fine and possibly ATC disciplinary action.


ATC: "44 you're not going to make it. What do you want to do?"
QF44: "Guess we'll go back."
ATC: "Sorry for the bad call, 44."
QF44: "Next time you owe me a round."

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AustFreqFly mobile app

 

[Sprucegoose]

The last time a QF international flight diverted to CBR was a PR nightmare

You'd have to be mad or have a medical emergency (and even then) to divert to CBR. And let's not forget the air noise complaints that will surely be raised by the Canberran residents the next day.





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I have never known CBR residents to complain about non existent aircraft noise.

 

[scaredeycat]

What a pity the flight wasn't full of pollies...

 

[Sprucegoose]

Exactly. Another embarassment to SYD - and the intial delay wasn't caused by weather, but delays caused by a lot of traffic holding to be allowed to land. Another mismanagement from what is meant to be the country's main airport. How embarassing.

Like going to the bank at closing if you're in the queue then you're in the queue!

If you are queued by 11pm you should be allowed to land.

Sydney is a joke.

 

[jb747]

Those touch and go fuel stops are tricky, you need to get the tanker up to the correct speed

AKA, a splash and dash.

 

[N860CR]

Thanks. I didn't realise the fine was so small.

Once you factor in the cost of diverting, accommodating all passengers and the rolling delay for the next service, 550k doesn't seem all that bad. Maybe the figures don't quite stack up for a 737, but the long haul operators who have copped the fine would definitely come out ahead.




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[simongr]

Assuming a full flight of 168 pax at say $300/night for hotels and and say $50 for sustenance (no idea if these are evenly close to what they would incur but trying to get magnitude. That would be $58,800 of accommodation expenses. To come out ahead the remaining costs would have to b in excess of $500,000 - I think that is a stretch.

 

[markis10]

Thanks. I didn't realise the fine was so small.

Once you factor in the cost of diverting, accommodating all passengers and the rolling delay for the next service, 550k doesn't seem all that bad. Maybe the figures don't quite stack up for a 737, but the long haul operators who have copped the fine would definitely come out ahead.




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I am not so sure on that, 350 people would cost 70K to house for the night including incidentals, Jet A1 will be $20000 (assuming 10T each way), other costs would probably mean the total tops out at 100K.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Thanks. I didn't realise the fine was so small.

Once you factor in the cost of diverting, accommodating all passengers and the rolling delay for the next service, 550k doesn't seem all that bad. Maybe the figures don't quite stack up for a 737, but the long haul operators who have copped the fine would definitely come out ahead.




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$550,000 is small these days?

 

[simongr]

Also let's assume on the 73H that QF sold all the seats for an average of $200/seat - they probably only earned revenue of $33,600. Compare that to the A380 that has 399 whY (say $1000 each), 74 J (say $4000 each) and 14 F (say $8000 each) and you have total revenue on that flight of over $1m

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Also let's assume on the 73H that QF sold all the seats for an average of $200/seat - they probably only earned revenue of $33,600. Compare that to the A380 that has 399 whY (say $1000 each), 74 J (say $4000 each) and 14 F (say $8000 each) and you have total revenue on that flight of over $1m

I think you are over estimating the value of a Y seat on an A380 flight when flights to LA can be had for $1300 during sales and government fees take a decent amount of that.

 

[simongr]

You are completely correct - the numbers were just illustrative.