QFF Bumped off Business.

[Reggie]

No I got the $200- as duty free goods that I selected.

And compensation cash of $982-

50000 points back.

You did extremely well. QF bumped my wife and I from J to Y on a SYD - PER flight. Nothing was offered, not even an appology or notice. Simply an error beep at the gate. I had to ask for a piece of paper confirming the downgrade so I could ring for some compensation at a later stage. all I received was 32000 points. In flight I asked for a Bacardi and Coke, and was told "no, thats only for business class, an I'm not bringing that down here". No appology, no cash and bugger all points. I would have beeen over the moon with $1182, it would have turned a very unpleasant event, (that I recall every time I read someone elses experience) into a great example of why I should fly Qantas. Instead Qantas have never opuped me, never done anything exceptional for me as a long time WP.

 

[oz_mark]

Anyone else been bumped?

Not me, but I have had the 'joy' of sitting next to people who have been downgraded!

 

[maninblack]

It's funny, this happened to a particularly cantankerous business associate of mine a few years ago and after he argued the point for a while and listened to the lame-cough excuses he simply put the boarding pass back on the counter, told the staff that he would never fly QF again, walked over to SQ and bought a ticket. I believe that he has remained true to his word. His opinion was that there is no excuse for airlines to overbook premium classes and no passenger is more important than any other passenger once a ticket is booked and confirmed. I tend to agree. In fact QFF have told me this directy when I have booke reward seats - no you are not lower in the pecking order and will not be bumped. A confirmed ticket is as good as any other confirmed ticket. It is complete BS that you were a non-revenue passenger. FF points are not given in charity, they are earned.

That being said I think bump downs are rare.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

No not Staff fault and no I didnt blame anyone. Yes we where probably only non-paying Business on board and no idea why they overbook, they said it doesnt happen a lot. To be told "you have been randomly selected" is rubbish, of course they will only select FF redeemers to downgrade.
We did get the difference in points refunded (cost 100000, got 50000 back).

And we did get a nice cash "compensation" which was handed over in cash at the gate. Was enough to cover our spending money on the 12 day holiday to Singapore and Thailand. So next time, might book Business and hope for bumping again.

No I got the $200- as duty free goods that I selected. And compensation cash of $982 50000 points back.

I'm assuming as the OP has said they might "book J again & hope for bumping again", that they were satisfied with the outcome. I think part of the reason people are upset is there is inadequate compensation or it's not given immediately. FWIW if I was in the same boat & given the option of the points refund, $200 duty free voucher & $982 cash at the gate then I would have felt very satisfied with that.

Overbooking is an extremely common practice for all airlines. Airlines just don't expect everyone to show up for a flight, so they overbook. It makes more economic sense to deal with an overbooked aircraft than have an aircraft with X amount of spare seats (because of no shows).

While some airlines do overbook flights in whY, in a lot of cases they have coverage up the pointy end which would result in status pax receiving op-ups or people being able to use points for upgrades to a higher cabin.

I think the majority of full service carriers would try and avoid overbooking premum cabins however overbooking situations can occur due to a number of reasons including an aircraft swap or downgrade, seats becoming u/s for pax, WP or high status pax being disrupted from other flights etc.

I think the point I was trying to make was clear though, better to upset a person who has a classic award booking than someone who has forked over actual money for the fare. Unless that person is a P1, or CL potentially.

It may not have been a case of been bumped due to the ticket type but due to status or lack of. I'm assuming that if QF 'allowed' the OP to use the lounge they would not have ordinarily have had access to the lounge unless they were travelling in J.

In the OP's case because it was a Classic Award it was easy for the airline to calculate the amount of points to refund because they simply look at the difference between J & Y on a Classic Award.

Had it been a paid fare it would depend on what economy fare type & cost they use to calculate the difference between whY & J. It would be impossible to tell what the best fare available was at the time of the booking & airlines normally use the difference between full j & full Y when calculating any refunds where pax is issued with a downgrade certificate.

Looking at the QF website under return flight availability the outbound fare component on the economy 'Sale' fare PER/SIN 29 Apr is AUD340.00 where as the same dates on the 'Exclusive Business' fare is AUD2123.00. Aside from the denied boarding compensation of AUD982.00, it would be unlikely for the airline to reimburse the pax the difference of AUD1783.00 between the cheapest economy fare the Business fare paid.

Most importantly, did the OP receive J SC and points?

If it was a Classic Award there would have been nil SC or points earn regardless of whether the OP was travelling in J or Y. If it was an ASA ticket then I don't see any reason why they would not receive an original routing credit.

 

[maninblack]

I think part of the reason people are upset is there is inadequate compensation or it's not given immediately. FWIW if I was in the same boat & given the option of the points refund, $200 duty free voucher & $982 cash at the gate then I would have felt very satisfied with that.

For some maybe that's okay. For my cantankerous friend who happens to be a very tall and very serious fellow he was not interested in any compo or excuses. He just wanted his J (or F) seat. I fully agree with him. A business class traveler should not show up for a regularly scheduled flight at Melbourne airport to be told they have been bumped. As he took all his business away from QF their behaviour has ultimately cost them a packet in lost revenue.

 

[Happy Trails]

A small point of order but it's only 3h 40m between the two PER-SIN departures, not 6 hours per the OP.
This would have a bearing on the decision to go in Y or wait for J.
Having said that though, I would probably have taken the money and run.

 

[amaroo]

When this happens, to a once only F or J flyer that built up points over a number of years for the pleasure of experiencing that seat - it must be devastating.

 

[ermen]

You did extremely well. QF bumped my wife and I from J to Y on a SYD - PER flight. Nothing was offered, not even an appology or notice. Simply an error beep at the gate. I had to ask for a piece of paper confirming the downgrade so I could ring for some compensation at a later stage. all I received was 32000 points. In flight I asked for a Bacardi and Coke, and was told "no, thats only for business class, an I'm not bringing that down here". No appology, no cash and bugger all points. I would have beeen over the moon with $1182, it would have turned a very unpleasant event, (that I recall every time I read someone elses experience) into a great example of why I should fly Qantas. Instead Qantas have never opuped me, never done anything exceptional for me as a long time WP.

Wow. What was the reason you got bumped down at the gate? Surprised that they did not even take care of you as a WP!

 

[ermen]

And you say I have an extremely narrow view. It is naive to think that QFF is ancillary considering the recurring talk of selling it off as a separate entity. The fact is Qantas run a number of businesses, that involve much more than just selling seats on aircraft, and the most profitable is QFF.

Actually, if you believe management, the most profitable part is Qantas Domestic based on FY11 numbers. Next is probably Jetstar...

 

[scheps]

yea thats what i heard too, but probably originated from the same source however..

 

[oz_mark]

It's funny, this happened to a particularly cantankerous business associate of mine a few years ago and after he argued the point for a while and listened to the lame-cough excuses he simply put the boarding pass back on the counter, told the staff that he would never fly QF again, walked over to SQ and bought a ticket. .

And yet I know people that have been bumped down on SQ (but I think their policy is to find a 'volunteer' first.)

 

[Reggie]

Actually, if you believe management, the most profitable part is Qantas Domestic based on FY11 numbers. Next is probably Jetstar...

We were told that they required the seat for some other passangers. We then found out from another (there were 3 of us) that had also been downgraded, that they had to send 3 tech's to Perth, and it was in their award that they had to fly business. This other person was the chief of staff for some NSW Minister. The Minister was kicking up a storm about having planned to work together on the flight etc etc etc. My guess was that as we were on FFer points, and the other would have been on a very attractive government fare, that we were the lowest in revenue terms.

 

[Sprucegoose]

And yet I know people that have been bumped down on SQ (but I think their policy is to find a 'volunteer' first.)

Yes that was my experience

 

[Awesom Andy]

I was talking to a check-in agent not so long ago, and she mentioned that, if someone needs to be moved, both status and the cost of the ticket would be taken into account. I assume "the cost of the ticket" being the booking class. It is also mostly automated by the computer, and cannot be over-ridden (not easily, at least). While I don't know if this applies for op-downs, I would assume that it is likely to be the case.

And, once again by the way of assumption, I would think that in business class, it goes by J, C, D, I, U, with redemption tickets being booked into U. So naturally, they would be the first ones to be op-downed (for the lack of a better word).

I'm not sure if I'm actually correct here, so somebody could correct me if I'm talking trash. :shock:

 

[markis10]

I was talking to a check-in agent not so long ago, and she mentioned that, if someone needs to be moved, both status and the cost of the ticket would be taken into account. I assume "the cost of the ticket" being the booking class. It is also mostly automated by the computer, and cannot be over-ridden (not easily, at least). While I don't know if this applies for op-downs, I would assume that it is likely to be the case.

And, once again by the way of assumption, I would think that in business class, it goes by J, C, D, I, U, with redemption tickets being booked into U. So naturally, they would be the first ones to be op-downed (for the lack of a better word).

I'm not sure if I'm actually correct here, so somebody could correct me if I'm talking trash. :shock:

i don't know about trash, but there has been frequent reports of reward travelers getting upgrades, I have always thought status trumps fare.

 

[pshepvic]

i don't know about trash, but there has been frequent reports of reward travelers getting upgrades, I have always thought status trumps fare.

I think that is the case as well - I guess in the instance when there are equal status pax in line for the upgrade, that's when fare would come into it.

Edit: Or in some cases whoever is at the airport first to ask. Or whoever is at the airport last and all of Y has been allocated and checked in already (as has happened to me).

Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app

 

[ajca]

Actually, if you believe management, the most profitable part is Qantas Domestic based on FY11 numbers. Next is probably Jetstar...

Qantas Airways (domestic + international) made $228m EBIT in FY11. If you take the $200m loss in international and add that back in, you get $428m EBIT for Qantas domestic. Next most profitable was QFF at $342m. Next was Jetstar at $169m. So QFF made more than twice what Jetstar made.

These figures taken from the market preso for FY11 results.

I don't really understand the inference contained in "if you believe management". The idea that the management of an ASX50 company would risk jail time and serious civil penalties by misleading investors in order to pursue some vague political agenda is just insane. And the idea that their external auditors would go along with this is even more insane.

 

[medhead]

Qantas Airways (domestic + international) made $228m EBIT in FY11. If you take the $200m loss in international and add that back in, you get $428m EBIT for Qantas domestic. Next most profitable was QFF at $342m. Next was Jetstar at $169m. So QFF made more than twice what Jetstar made.

These figures taken from the market preso for FY11 results.

I don't really understand the inference contained in "if you believe management". The idea that the management of an ASX50 company would risk jail time and serious civil penalties by misleading investors in order to pursue some vague political agenda is just insane. And the idea that their external auditors would go along with this is even more insane.

I think "if you believe management" is probably a fair caveat to add. Why? Because they don't report QFi profit in the accounts. They report QF, JQ, QFF, Freight etc., then they tell you minus $200 million for QFi. That number lacks the credibility of the numbers reported to the ASX. For example, if we are hearing about QFi, where are the corresponding numbers for JQi. What is the purpose of the number and where is the comparable numbers from other parts of the group. Basically, IMO, it is a bit of information put out there to paint a picture and it is very hard to know if that is a correct picture. (Personally, I'm really not prepared to add back in the $200 million to the QF number to get a QFd number - the official part of the group is QF not QFd.)

I think also that their may be some ability in the accounting standards to structure things to achieve certain outcomes while still meaning the requirements of the ASX.

 

[ajca]

I think "if you believe management" is probably a fair caveat to add. Why? Because they don't report QFi profit in the accounts. They report QF, JQ, QFF, Freight etc., then they tell you minus $200 million for QFi. That number lacks the credibility of the numbers reported to the ASX. For example, if we are hearing about QFi, where are the corresponding numbers for JQi. What is the purpose of the number and were is the comparable numbers from other parts of the group. Basically, IMO, it is a bit of information put out there to paint a picture and it is very hard to know if that is a correct picture. (Personally, I'm really not prepared to add back in the $200 million to the QF number to get a QFd number - the official part of the group is QF not QFd.)

I think also that their may be some ability in the accounting standards to structure things to achieve certain outcomes while still meaning the requirements of the ASX.

Qantas Group reported the $200m international loss to the ASX in the FY11 preliminary final report, on page 1. They disclose an EBIT number for the Qantas Airways segment, as it is clearly an integrated business with a lot of shared revenues and expenses. But it is totally legitimate for them to also say "but this part of the Qantas Airways segment is losing $x". Especially when that part of the Qantas Airways segment is consuming 35%+ of the whole group's capital and basically hasn't made money (returned it cost of capital) since the 1990s.

Your point about them not disclosing the number for Jetstar is irrelevant as Jetstar International (unlike Qantas international) is not in a long-term structural decline and loss of market share due to having a 20%+ higher cost base than its competitors. Thankfully for QAN shareholders.

What motivation would management would have to make up the $200m loss anyway? Even if Qantas international made a $200m PROFIT, that is still a completely unacceptable return on $5 billion of invested capital (4% return). Especially in a high-risk business where you are investing an extra $1.5 billion+ in new fleet every single year. So the argument for restructuring international is actually completely independent of the $200m loss, unless you argue that Qantas international secretly made a profit of say $800 million (16% return on capital) and they somehow stashed away an extra billion dollars somewhere else in their books.

Anyone who has worked in corporate HQ at a public company knows that you do NOT take these things lightly. Statements of financial results to the ASX have to be signed off by management, directors, internal auditors, and maybe also external auditors. Just ask Andrew Forrest what happens when you get these things wrong.

 

[equus]

if someone needs to be moved, both status and the cost of the ticket would be taken into account

I have always thought status trumps fare.

Not sure how Op Downs work after close of checkin, but if both cost of ticket and status are involved, status must be trumping.

Was on a QF SYD-HKG about 2 years ago. Had Y booking, and entered the upgrade lottery, for 2 x PS. Upgrade came through, so U class. Check in OK (seats assigned). Delay in departure, and then aircraft sub. (Needed the plane to do the JNB run, as that a/c went tech). New plane was different configuration, with many less J seats - so op Downs were occuring. We reatined J seats (although no longer together - had to swap seats after takeoff, but not too difficult, as were travelling with another friend who had paid for J - so wanted 3 seats, includding a middle). I know from disgruntled other passengers, that J fare paying passengers were being either Op'ed down, or offloaded to a later flight. Flight was about 4 hours late leaving as it was.