Revoking Privileges from those Voicing Opinions Contrary to Yours

[LadyC]

Interesting where this thread has gone.

My original post was about the appropriateness of possible corporate activism, in this case by Qantas, on matters that are unrelated to its business.

It was never about race, or immigration, or who is committing what offences where.

Corporate activism is interesting. I think it is still in its infancy and many large corporates are wary of taking a particular position on an issue because they are unsure of how it will ultimately impact them. The most interesting and significant activity we saw of late was in regards to the same sex marriage survey.

 

[serfty]

106 times, Serfty?

There was a glitch in the matrix, the figure is actually 6.85 ...

 

[Moody]

There was a glitch in the matrix, the figure is actually 6.85 ...

Yep - that figure seems a lot more fact based. And as the report points out, the local population of Sudanese is skewed towards the age demographic that tends to offend. They don't quantify that effect on the stats, so let's say that the rate is 4 times (+/-1) the average. A problem to be investigated and acted on for sure, but probably consistent with other waves of new migrants. No need to whip up hysteria which will only entrench the problem.

Or am I being naive about the maturity of the immigration debate in this country?

 

[Moody]

Indeed who decides what is hate speech.Chelsea Clinton has been accused of complicity in the Christchurch massacre because she criticised a muslim Congresswoman for her anti-semitic speech.

So a Russian based media organisation posts a video of some students berating a woman for comments not disclosed here about a speech I haven't heard. Can you guess my care factor, drron?

On the other hand I have read and heard the words used by the senator. Do you need me to quote them to you? How would you categorise them? What would you say if he said them in your house or workplace or church?

 

[drron]

Oh dear Moody.I just posted that copy of the video as it appeared to be the only one on You tube and I just can't post videos from other sources.They are all over the Internet.Just use Google.
Besides Chelsea Clinton complained of a speech by a Congresswoman,not a Senator.Yes I have watched that speech and as far as I am concerned it is hate speech so definitely that Congresswoman should not be invited into the CL if she visits Australia.

 

[JohnK]

If QF management pulls CL membership because of comments. it announces to the world that certain views, even certain political views are unwelcome. Sure its a private company, but doing this pushes it into the centre of public political debate. The unintended consequence is that the airline will need to increasingly genuflect towards the radical side of that debate.

Companies such as Qantas need to stay out of politics and political discussions.

P.S. The majority on any issue is not as clear cut as some may think. Ask Sweden what they feel about immigration.

 

[Moody]

Oh dear Moody.I just posted that copy of the video as it appeared to be the only one on You tube and I just can't post videos from other sources.They are all over the Internet.Just use Google.
Besides Chelsea Clinton complained of a speech by a Congresswoman,not a Senator.Yes I have watched that speech and as far as I am concerned it is hate speech so definitely that Congresswoman should not be invited into the CL if she visits Australia.

Back to the silly games, drron? OK - I have found a link for you :-

Chelsea Clinton slams Ilhan Omar for 'anti-Semitic tweet' about Israel | Daily Mail Online

Says more about the broken political system in the USA, which is all about which lobbyist has the deepest pockets. I don't believe any of them have CL access, so wouldn't expect Qantas to comment.

Now - have you thought of a reasonable defence for the senators comments? Or does he represent your views?

 

[oz_mark]

Companies such as Qantas need to stay out of politics and political discussions.

But surely their CEO and board chairman are free to express their opinions?

 

[JohnK]

But surely their CEO and board chairman are free to express their opinions?

Free to express their opinion not free to review Chairman's lounge membership based on political comments because they don't agree with those comments.

 

[Renato1]

Certainly off topic but in response.
Fact check: Do Sudanese people account for only 1 per cent of crimes committed in Victoria?

Thanks. That's entirely consistent with what I wrote earlier.
Monash University Associate Professor in Criminology Rebecca Wickes said: "1 per cent of offences are being committed by those who have reported being born in South Sudan. That is accurate."
and
In percentage terms, there is a greater disparity between population and crime rates for people born in Sudan and South Sudan, who make up just 0.14 per cent of Victoria's population.

So, for all categories of crime combined, Sudanese commit crimes at a rate of 1/0.14= 7.14 times greater than the population average.

Using older data when the Sudanese were only 0.11% of the population,
"But Sudanese youths were vastly over-represented in the 2015 data, responsible for 7.44 per cent of home invasions, 5.65 per cent of car thefts and 13.9 per cent of aggravated robberies, despite Sudanese-born citizens making up about 0.11 per cent of Victoria's population."
that is, compared to population average 68 times for home invasions, 51 times greater for car thefts, and 126 times greater for aggravated robbery.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...s-about-racial-profiling-20161123-gsvete.html
Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

Indeed who decides what is hate speech.Chelsea Clinton has been accused of complicity in the Christchurch massacre because she criticised a muslim Congresswoman for her anti-semitic speech.

Chelsea Clinton apologises for it, so it must be true.

Taking it a step further, I think we could all agree with the activist in the video, and conclude that Chelsea Clinton was responsible for the massacre in New Zealand.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

The actions of the police and courts is too late.

The debate should not be about 'African crime' but the underlying reasons.

If we support, as a country, increasing our population through various means including immigration, we need the support services and infrastructure in place. We need community, health services, schools, education and meaningful employment for that increase in population. At the moment we seem to 'welcome' people, stick them in housing commission accommodation (perhaps in the middle of no where), don't give them a job or community, and then wonder why we have problems.

I disagree - while the underlying reasons that you cite for the current debacle, is indeed a legitimate debate to be had about what we do with future immigrants, it's not relevant to now. Instead the debate about what to do about Sudanese crime, which is happening as of right now, is I opine the primary debate, which few wish to address - and something which Senator Anning was trying to give effect to (in sharp contrast to Premier Andrews, who in response to violent incidents recently said that they were just children who had lost their way - possible solution: help them find their way?).

There is a problem and something very wrong with Policing, when local sporting goods stores keep running out of baseball bats.

My friend is a teacher at a school with lots of African students, and he tells me that the non-Sudanese African students (Kenyans and the like) are very irate with the term "African Crime". They say "Call it what it is - Sudanese Crime - it has nothing to do with us".

Regards,
Renato

 

[Moody]

Free to express their opinion not free to review Chairman's lounge membership based on political comments because they don't agree with those comments.

Just because the senator is a politician does not make these "political comments". When even Pauline Hanson is offended and says I no longer want to be associated with you, is it any wonder Qantas doesn't?

But you are absolutely free to say this, JohnK, as you are not using racist or xenophobic hate speech or anything that would see you fall foul of our vilification laws. You are also free to never fly Qantas again in protest.

 

[drron]

Back to the silly games, drron? OK - I have found a link for you :-

Chelsea Clinton slams Ilhan Omar for 'anti-Semitic tweet' about Israel | Daily Mail Online

Says more about the broken political system in the USA, which is all about which lobbyist has the deepest pockets. I don't believe any of them have CL access, so wouldn't expect Qantas to comment.

Now - have you thought of a reasonable defence for the senators comments? Or does he represent your views?

As I said Moody I have seen that hence my comments on the dopey NYU students for accusing Chelsea Clinton of being responsible for the Christchurch massacre.

I have for quite some time not been interested in anything that Senator says.

 

[andye]

Statistics are not always easy with confounding common.

I'm sure that the average Sudanese Australian is more likely to attend a school (or host a child's birthday party or chew gum etc) than the average Victorian simply by virtue of their average age.

Crime is disproportionately committed by young men and that's before accounting for socioeconomic disadvantage.

The proportion of crimes being committed does seem high and worthy of engagement to reduce them but the 51-128x multiples quoted above, overstate any problem and (in my opinion) are not helpful

 

[CaptJCool]

Statistics are not always easy with confounding common.

I'm sure that the average Sudanese Australian is more likely to attend a school (or host a child's birthday party or chew gum etc) than the average Victorian simply by virtue of their average age.

Crime is disproportionately committed by young men and that's before accounting for socioeconomic disadvantage.

The proportion of crimes being committed does seem high and worthy of engagement to reduce them but the 51-128x multiples quoted above, overstate any problem and (in my opinion) are not helpful

So let’s bring ADELAIDE GOOD NEWS STORY in here as theses things happened there in 2008-09.... for the back history
Sudanese heritage youth in Australia are frequently maligned by fear-mongering and racism. Most Sudanese were in refugee camps for 8-10 years outside of Sudan.... the place was a mess, so the young of today never lived in Sudan. Unfortunately in 2008-9 there were the two murders, arrests happened, guilty verdicts. And everyone else were fast learners. What may have happened elsewhere where 30% of kids gotvto year 5 and everyone else dropped our, wasn’t going to happen in Australia.

And episodes like this breed envy
South Sudanese general paid $1.5m for Melbourne home, says war profiteering report

the community got together and started education & other programs

Like these
The Challenge for Refugees - Starting a New Life | AnglicareSA Engagement program 2014-18

No Cookies | The Advertiser

Like this
South Sudanese young people defend their reputations

PS Of course this more recent GOOD NEWS stories are deafening in their silence .....

 

[stm1sydney]

This QF initiative just confirms for me that they are so distracted by non-business-related issues like "social justice" that they don't pay enough attention to improving the quality of their products and service delivery while keeping prices low (which is what businesses need to do to survive and prosper and increase shareholder value). The proof of this pudding is in the eating (QF service quality).

It's like large corporations in the United States which are similarly captivated by such issues. Think Gillette.

Also, someone observed, in the wake of the 7M8 problems, that Boeing now has sixty "diversity councils" in its organisation. If their focus had not been taken away from hard engineering towards "diversity" and other "social justice" issues, maybe they would have been able to make the hard decisions and have avoided the 7M8 problems.

So it is not a "free speech" issue or whether Senator Anning engaged in "hate speech" (howsoever defined).

 

[harvyk]

This QF initiative just confirms for me that they are so distracted by non-business-related issues like "social justice" that they don't pay enough attention to improving the quality of their products and service delivery while keeping prices low (which is what businesses need to do to survive and prosper and increase shareholder value). The proof of this pudding is in the eating (QF service quality).

It's like large corporations in the United States which are similarly captivated by such issues. Think Gillette.

Also, someone observed, in the wake of the 7M8 problems, that Boeing now has sixty "diversity councils" in its organisation. If their focus had not been taken away from hard engineering towards "diversity" and other "social justice" issues, maybe they would have been able to make the hard decisions and have avoided the 7M8 problems.

So it is not a "free speech" issue or whether Senator Anning engaged in "hate speech" (howsoever defined).

Just two comments from me, the first is that companies have the ability to do two (or more) things at once. They can say "Jane Doe, look after this" AND "John Smith, look after that". They are not like people who can only do so much in a day.


The second is that it's often in the companies interest these days to show themselves as good corporate citizens. Now sure, your going to have the scenario where an openly gay CEO chooses to support LGBTI causes because it's an issue close to his heart. But your also going to get the scenario where a company supports social causes because they feel that's what their customers and investors want, not because anyone on the board is personally invested in it. Every company of late who has seemingly taken a stance on a social issue, you know that it hasn't happened by accident. There has likely been a team in the background weighing up the pro's and con's of doing so. *

* - Of course this doesn't preclude those situations where a CEO has engaged mouth before brain, but they are somewhat rare.

 

[eastwest101]

... Every company of late who has seemingly taken a stance on a social issue, you know that it hasn't happened by accident. There has likely been a team in the background weighing up the pro's and con's of doing so. *

A team that diverts company resources, capital and time away from their core business of being competitive and delivering service to its customers and profits to shareholders..

 

[Moody]

A team that diverts company resources, capital and time away from their core business of being competitive and delivering service to its customers and profits to shareholders..

That's right - it's all about money. Stupid tree-hugging commies are destroying the perfect capitalist world before we have a chance to properly destroy the planet. coughs!