safety at qantas

[drewbles]

They sure can.

I hope the crew watch the video before each flight. Sometimes I forget how to put on my seatbelt, so i just leave it off.

There is a reason that flight attendants have such rigorous training in emergency situations, and spend most their training time on this (not how to offer coffee or tea).

There's also a reason flight crew take on frequent training. It's to ensure they are always up-to-date with emergency procedures and the like. It's drummed into them from day one.

The least I can do is pay attention to them. The last thing I want is to forget something in an emergency, even though I may take up to 100 flights a year. It's not like the in-flight magazine is going to take my entire flight to read anyway

I can't remember the term for it, but there is a condition where in an emergency you forget a lot of what you'd usually remember as part of 'routine' as you're so sure you know it, you don't bother to re-enforce it in your mind. There have been situations where people have 'forgotten' how to operate seat belts in accidents. I'm not an expert, but I have read it somewhere (if someone has a link to a specific example, please mention it).

 

[Keith009]

I can't remember the term for it, but there is a condition where in an emergency you forget a lot of what you'd usually remember as part of 'routine' as you're so sure you know it, you don't bother to re-enforce it in your mind. There have been situations where people have 'forgotten' how to operate seat belts in accidents. I'm not an expert, but I have read it somewhere (if someone has a link to a specific example, please mention it).

The Kegworth Air Disaster comes to mind. I remember stories about people clawing themselves to undo seatbelts car-style rather than lap-buckle style.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Here is a comment at nonews;

And Brendon Joyce wonders why the "Qantas" brand is in trouble. Here is a start Brendan. Get your fleet up to scratch, start treating your customers as people instead of numbers. Have a stricter policy regarding alcohol on flights. Then I might fly Qantas again, until then I fly Emirates or Singapore.

I don't know whether I should laugh or cry.

I also note the TWU is out lambasting QF again...wage negotiation time, is it?

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Here is a good documentary from Frontline-PBS about airline maintenance in the US

It was made on the 18th Jan, 2011.

Worthy of having a quick look.

Flying Cheaper - FRONTLINE: Flying Cheaper - Video | PBS

 

[tuppaware]

The Kegworth Air Disaster comes to mind. I remember stories about people clawing themselves to undo seatbelts car-style rather than lap-buckle style.

Its quite common that in panic situations people forget that its a lift buckle rather then a push button. Most people are so well trained to car seats they forget the difference.

Then there are the seatbelts with air bags in them - YouTube - Aircraft seatbelt airbags

 

[farmer]

Hi all,
I still can't believe that Qantas is persisting with the line that the outsourcing of the maintenance of the Rolls Royce engines on the A380 through" Power by the Hour" contracts is not a problem. Qantas CEO has admitted they were not advised of the need for the modification to these engines. They only found out when over 300 people nearly died.

The same problem is emerging with the Rolls Royce enginess on the 747-400's. Uncontained engine failure, repeated engine shutdowns in flight. Its the same outsourcing arrangement.

If Qantas is committed to "exceeding" not just equalling the safety record of other airlines they must bring this under their direct management. I don't care where it is done but it should be under Qantas Engineering direct control.

The Qantas brand is based on worlds best safety practices not the world average!!!

 

[drewbles]

Hi all,
I still can't believe that Qantas is persisting with the line that the outsourcing of the maintenance of the Rolls Royce engines on the A380 through" Power by the Hour" contracts is not a problem. Qantas CEO has admitted they were not advised of the need for the modification to these engines. They only found out when over 300 people nearly died.

The same problem is emerging with the Rolls Royce enginess on the 747-400's. Uncontained engine failure, repeated engine shutdowns in flight. Its the same outsourcing arrangement.

If Qantas is committed to "exceeding" not just equalling the safety record of other airlines they must bring this under their direct management. I don't care where it is done but it should be under Qantas Engineering direct control.

The Qantas brand is based on worlds best safety practices not the world average!!!

And so the circle keeps going around....

The 747 issues have absolutely zero to do with the A380 issues. Totally different power plants. It's like saying that just because Toyota make the Yarris and the Camry, the fact that both engines keep blowing con rods means they are related.

The only same point here is Rolls Royce. They have zero to do with each other, they are mutually exclusive.

There are a *lot* of airlines that have the power-by-the-hour contracts. It's not an uncommon thing for a total package to be negotiated by the airlines.

Perhaps have a dig around at other airlines and see how common this really is.

Rolls screwed up yes, but that does not make QF any less safe than other airlines simply because they took this option.

Also whilst you're using $SEARCH_ENGINE_OF_CHOICE, take a look at how many airlines shut down engines in-flight each week. It is a common occurrence, and most definitely not isolated to QF.

 

[nlagalle]

Hi all,
I still can't believe that Qantas is persisting with the line that the outsourcing of the maintenance of the Rolls Royce engines on the A380 through" Power by the Hour" contracts is not a problem. Qantas CEO has admitted they were not advised of the need for the modification to these engines. They only found out when over 300 people nearly died.

The same problem is emerging with the Rolls Royce enginess on the 747-400's. Uncontained engine failure, repeated engine shutdowns in flight. Its the same outsourcing arrangement.

If Qantas is committed to "exceeding" not just equalling the safety record of other airlines they must bring this under their direct management. I don't care where it is done but it should be under Qantas Engineering direct control.

The Qantas brand is based on worlds best safety practices not the world average!!!

Farmer, welcome to AFF.

I strongly suggest you read the ATSB report I posted in this thread - you will see that the part that failed had nothing to do with modifications to be done on the engines.

You also need to realise that since the advent of "social media" these events are reported much more often than in the past.

 

[farmer]

And so the circle keeps going around....

The 747 issues have absolutely zero to do with the A380 issues. Totally different power plants. It's like saying that just because Toyota make the Yarris and the Camry, the fact that both engines keep blowing con rods means they are related.

The only same point here is Rolls Royce. They have zero to do with each other, they are mutually exclusive.

There are a *lot* of airlines that have the power-by-the-hour contracts. It's not an uncommon thing for a total package to be negotiated by the airlines.

Perhaps have a dig around at other airlines and see how common this really is.

Rolls screwed up yes, but that does not make QF any less safe than other airlines simply because they took this option.

Also whilst you're using $SEARCH_ENGINE_OF_CHOICE, take a look at how many airlines shut down engines in-flight each week. It is a common occurrence, and most definitely not isolated to QF.

Hi again,

You are both missing the point. You are comparing Qantas with other airlines and saying explicitly that as long as Qantas is doing the same as all the other airlines there is not a problem!!!

Qantas used to be the gold standard by which fleet managment, maintenance and safety performance was measured. Your suggestion is that because everyone is doing it , it is okay! Is the Qantas standard now the fair average quality of safety and maintenance of all airlines??

Two uncontained enginee failures in less than six months on two Rolls Royce engines maintained by other people, not under Qantas Engineering control is not a standard Qantas would have accepted until recent years, when cost control became more important than brand or safety.

This is not about offshoring ,it is about outsourcing the management of the most important part of any aircraft, the engines. Qantas admitted it did not know what was being done to its engines regardless of whether this is the direct cause. I note the technical investigation is far from complete and Qantas actions in court suggest all is not well with "power by the hour".

I stress again this is not about where the work is done, but the direct control of the maintenace of engines by Qantas Engineering. Perhaps a fatal loss of an aircraft will be required to resolve this. I hope not.

 

[nlagalle]

Hi again,

You are both missing the point. You are comparing Qantas with other airlines and saying explicitly that as long as Qantas is doing the same as all the other airlines there is not a problem!!!

Qantas used to be the gold standard by which fleet managment, maintenance and safety performance was measured. Your suggestion is that because everyone is doing it , it is okay! Is the Qantas standard now the fair average quality of safety and maintenance of all airlines??

Two uncontained enginee failures in less than six months on two Rolls Royce engines maintained by other people, not under Qantas Engineering control is not a standard Qantas would have accepted until recent years, when cost control became more important than brand or safety.

This is not about offshoring ,it is about outsourcing the management of the most important part of any aircraft, the engines. Qantas admitted it did not know what was being done to its engines regardless of whether this is the direct cause. I note the technical investigation is far from complete and Qantas actions in court suggest all is not well with "power by the hour".

I stress again this is not about where the work is done, but the direct control of the maintenace of engines by Qantas Engineering. Perhaps a fatal loss of an aircraft will be required to resolve this. I hope not.

I'm not comparing QF to other airlines. I am comapring QF to it's past history. I am also highlighting the effect of social media has on reporting these incidents.

Can I ask you a question? a fleet owner of cars maintains their vehicles of say holdens, but have the engines serviced by holden under agreement. Who do you think would be better at maintaining said engines?

QF have instigated court action if a resolution is not reached with RR. it's got nothing to do with pay by the hour, it's protecting their losses. The same action would have occured if the engines were maintained inhouse too as it was caused by a manufacturing fault (which I doubt QF engineers would have picked up either). I haven't read the report on the other engine issue so I won't comment on that one.

Also throwing another slant on things - is Australian Engineering the best in the world? What about the other QF incidents on aircraft that were serviced in Australia? If you are saying offshore maintenance is no good, are you saying you will never fly Singapore airlines, Cathay or Thai to name a few?

 

[farmer]

I'm not comparing QF to other airlines. I am comapring QF to it's past history. I am also highlighting the effect of social media has on reporting these incidents.

Can I ask you a question? a fleet owner of cars maintains their vehicles of say holdens, but have the engines serviced by holden under agreement. Who do you think would be better at maintaining said engines?

QF have instigated court action if a resolution is not reached with RR. it's got nothing to do with pay by the hour, it's protecting their losses. The same action would have occured if the engines were maintained inhouse too as it was caused by a manufacturing fault (which I doubt QF engineers would have picked up either). I haven't read the report on the other engine issue so I won't comment on that one.

Also throwing another slant on things - is Australian Engineering the best in the world? What about the other QF incidents on aircraft that were serviced in Australia? If you are saying offshore maintenance is no good, are you saying you will never fly Singapore airlines, Cathay or Thai to name a few?

HI,
The irony is that Singapore do directly control the work on their engines as they have large shareholding in the entity doing the work on their engines. Thai also undertakes the work directly on their engines. Not sure about Cathay. I stress again this is not about where the work is done here or overseas, but the direct oversight and control of the work and status of the engines and airframe by Qantas.

Based on Qantas's history until recent years, its was the standard of maintenance and safety management that all airlines around the world aspired to. Perhaps they have caught up but Qantas appears to be going in the other direction based on the frequency of and seriousness of incidents.

I have been a Qantas FF since Feb 91 and have lifetime Platinum status. What is occuring now is not the standard Qantas aspired to and achieved for so many years.

 

[nlagalle]

HI,
The irony is that Singapore do directly control the work on their engines as they have large shareholding in the entity doing the work on their engines. Thai also undertakes the work directly on their engines. Not sure about Cathay. I stress again this is not about where the work is done here or overseas, but the direct oversight and control of the work and status of the engines and airframe by Qantas.

Based on Qantas's history until recent years, its was the standard of maintenance and safety management that all airlines around the world aspired to. Perhaps they have caught up but Qantas appears to be going in the other direction based on the frequency of and seriousness of incidents.

I have been a Qantas FF since Feb 91 and have lifetime Platinum status. What is occuring now is not the standard Qantas aspired to and achieved for so many years.

FYI Qantas still look after their airframes. And I don't believe all engines are outsourced for servicing. Also as I have already stated the A380 incident was caused by a manufacturing fault - even if QF was servicing the engine, odds on it still would have happened. There is no mention that the servicing done on the engine was below any standard.

Again you haven't acknowledged my comments about social media highlighting incidents. Have you researched and can show there is an increase in incidents from say 10 years ago in comparison to the number of flights?

Also I didn't know there was lifetime Platinum either....

 

[dot]

Then there are the seatbelts with air bags in them - YouTube - Aircraft seatbelt airbags

I always wondered why CX put all that extra padding on their seatbelts - I thought it was just to make me uncomfortable on long Y flights! Turns out it was to save my life - nice of them.

 

[Nigelinoz]

I still think what it comes down to is that Qantas is still a safe airline-they have never had a fatality on a jet aircraft-that must count for something:!:.
I feel safe when I fly on a QF aircraft,as I do when I fly DJ,JQ,Rex or even Tiger,which is more than I can say for some other carriers-and none of the recent incidents Qantas has suffered has made me feel any different.
Cheers
N'oz

 

[dk4]

I have been a Qantas FF since Feb 91 and have lifetime Platinum status.

OT- but can you please advise what the trigger/status credit earn was for you to gain "lifetime platinum status"?

 

[milehighclub]

HI,
The irony is that Singapore do directly control the work on their engines as they have large shareholding in the entity doing the work on their engines....

.... Perhaps they have caught up but Qantas appears to be going in the other direction based on the frequency of and seriousness of incidents.

Yeah Singapore does a real good job too - are we talking about the same airline that sent their A380s up in the air after the QF32 only to also ground some of them a few days later because then they found the fault...... even though initially they said there wasn't a problem.

Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with this site as well
The Aviation Herald

 

[simongr]

Just out of interest how does lifetime platinum status confer any expertise in either aircraft engineering standards or statistics on the number of incidents QF have experienced?

 

[mannej]

farmer, I ask you the question. Would QF32 happened if the maintenance was done in Australia? More than likely.

It is funny that you mention Singapore Airlines. HAESL lists SQ as one of their clients, along with NZ, EK, BA, CX etc etc etc. (The list does have another 20 more airlines).

Are these events happening more than in 1991? I don't think you or I could actually say either way with any authority. Those who are in the know have suggested that the number of incidents have remained the same, however the reporting of the incidents has increased ten fold.

It is not as simple as bringing everything back to oz is it?

 

[simongr]

To be fair to farmer he/she has repeatedly stated that this is not about bringing things back to Oz but QF having ownership/rigorous oversight of maintenance rather than outsourcing.

My understanding though was that all servicing was "supervised" by a Qantas engineer (I know of QF engineers who have actually been up to SIN to oversight engineering). I am not sure that this is still the case though as I am not in a position to professionally comment on that.

 

[dot]

FYI Qantas still look after their airframes. And I don't believe all engines are outsourced for servicing. ....

Hi Nick, as I understand it, Qantas have a 'Power by the hour' maintenance contract* with RR for the RR Trent 900s on the QF A380s - which means that RR does do all the maintenance work on the engines. That may well be overseen by QF engineers as Simongr suggests (which I would expect) but it will be RR staff doing the work.

*Performance based contract which allows QF to pay by the engine-hour of operation as opposed to fixed cost or cost plus contracts. This sort of contract is supposed to eliminate overcharging/gouging that is seen in Cost plus maintenance contacts and the skimping on service/parts in Fixed price contracts.