Should business class be buyer beware?

[Simo]

The PE offer on E190's is less than desirable as well.

 

[markis10]

At least DJ are addressing the problem with the business class refits to the E190 having been started.

Considering JohnK had ZPM, which was thought to be getting the refurb while it was it the states until last week!

 

[samh004]

And Qantas is dumb. They should sell business class on a Dash-8 and give you 2 seats.

They already do, I regularly claim 2 seats for less than a Flexi... in fact even when I book one, I still get a shadow.

 

[JohnK]

Well I agree with you there, but there was an emerging sub-argument (or rebuttal) to your complaint which was trying to argue that your grievance held less weight than a "prima facie" case because you paid so little for it, i.e. your fare would've barely covered an equivalent Y fare even at sale, so most people are saying it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

I don't understand that (sub-)argument.

To use that example if someone paid $16,500 for a first class seat and they were downgraded to business class they would have every right to complain but if someone else paid $6,000 for the same first class seat and got downgraded to business class they can't complain as they received what they paid for?

 

[RooFlyer]

IME VA are pretty good with doing that, I've seen a number of mixed class warnings before.

I plugged in a random date in the future:

Edit: I was gonna say I don't know if it wasn't like that when you booked, and if it wasn't then I agree, you'd have course to be annoyed, if it was never articulated at that or a subsequent step during booking...

Totally agree with the OP.

I flew on an E190 from SYD to HBA DJ1534 this afternoon in J. It was a points booking, but I've just repeated the booking for 1 week from now on the web site and there is nothing to say its other than a 'normal' business product (which Virgin have been flogging no end).

There were 2 of us in J (same actual seat config and size as Y) and we both had a spare seat beside us, but no-one said that we were 'entitled' to use the 2 seats. There was no IFE - either mobile or fixed. There was a nice snack service with wines and a very pleasant FA.

But if I had paid full tote, rather than using points, I would have been very, very peeved.

AC run these planes a lot, and their J cabin is 1 down the left and 2 down the right side and are very much 'business class' seats.

I'd never pay J fare for a E190 and points are probably not worth it either.

 

[KCMil]

Totally agree with the OP.

I flew on an E190 from SYD to HBA DJ1534 this afternoon in J. It was a points booking, but I've just repeated the booking for 1 week from now on the web site and there is nothing to say its other than a 'normal' business product (which Virgin have been flogging no end).

There were 2 of us in J (same actual seat config and size as Y) and we both had a spare seat beside us, but no-one said that we were 'entitled' to use the 2 seats. There was no IFE - either mobile or fixed. There was a nice snack service with wines and a very pleasant FA.

But if I had paid full tote, rather than using points, I would have been very, very peeved.

AC run these planes a lot, and their J cabin is 1 down the left and 2 down the right side and are very much 'business class' seats.

I'd never pay J fare for a E190 and points are probably not worth it either.

As previously noted, the E190's are being fitted as we speak with a 1-2 config. The lack of IFE was the result of the "nice FA" not doing their job and offering it, or advising that you had the use of both seats!

And I've just tried multiple bookings on differing sextors, all came up with the warning that the secondary or primary sector was economy only!

 

[markis10]

Totally agree with the OP.

I flew on an E190 from SYD to HBA DJ1534 this afternoon in J. It was a points booking, but I've just repeated the booking for 1 week from now on the web site and there is nothing to say its other than a 'normal' business product (which Virgin have been flogging no end).

There were 2 of us in J (same actual seat config and size as Y) and we both had a spare seat beside us, but no-one said that we were 'entitled' to use the 2 seats. There was no IFE - either mobile or fixed. There was a nice snack service with wines and a very pleasant FA.

But if I had paid full tote, rather than using points, I would have been very, very peeved.

AC run these planes a lot, and their J cabin is 1 down the left and 2 down the right side and are very much 'business class' seats.

I'd never pay J fare for a E190 and points are probably not worth it either.

And what you got is the normal business product for the E190 as detailed under the business class subheading of the "experience" tab:

Embraer E190 Business Class seat features include:

• Luxury leather
• Two seats per row*
• Generous recline
• 34 inch (85cm) seat pitch

*Guests must be assigned a window seat for boarding. If you wish to change to another seat within Business Class, please check with the cabin crew on your flight.


Perhaps Virgin assumed a customer would check what to expect, and hence the lack of a need to say what has already been published, I know TAs have been briefed along similar lines but book your own customers do need to do their own research.

While its not ideal, its better than having no business class option which was the case when the 700s were quickly withdrawn from being booked following similar complaints, and the refits are being done pretty quick with the fleet to be completed soon.

 

[Fruitcake]

I had my first E190 'two seats for one' flight the other day. Quite enjoyed it - legroom was reasonable, plenty of shoulder space, service/food was just as good as the 737 and, more importantly, I was able to keep my tablet set up to watch the IFE whilst eating - something you can't do in a J seat. One of other gentlemen in J was working on a laptop and a tablet spread across both tables.

The only negative I found was that when reclining in row 2 you impinge on row 3's space.

 

[RooFlyer]

Perhaps Virgin assumed a customer would check what to expect, and hence the lack of a need to say what has already been published, I know TAs have been briefed along similar lines but book your own customers do need to do their own research.

Perhaps they did; perhaps I should. Perhaps I simply couldn't be stuffed trawling through every Virgin web page to be 'fully informed' .

Go and do the on-line booking I described - SYD-HBA on 4th Dec. It'll bring up 2 direct flights and a bunch via MEL. Now click on the 'Business' heading to get the drop-down description of the business features. (I can't get screen capture, sorry). It says 'Business seating - extra space and comfort'. It doesn't discriminate between the E190 and any other J seating. No asterisk or qualification there, just an (apparently) uniform service. For IFE it DOES say "Included (where offered). So they could qualify the J seating if minded to, in the actual booking, where the pax is more likely to look (as opposed to some other part of the web site).

While its not ideal, its better than having no business class option which was the case when the 700s were quickly withdrawn from being booked following similar complaints, and the refits are being done pretty quick with the fleet to be completed soon.

You really think that? I'd say it depends on the price. For SYD-HBA its lousy value and has left me with a negative feeling towards Virgin (FWIW).

 

[markis10]

Perhaps they did; perhaps I should. Perhaps I simply couldn't be stuffed trawling through every Virgin web page to be 'fully informed' .

Go and do the on-line booking I described - SYD-HBA on 4th Dec. It'll bring up 2 direct flights and a bunch via MEL. Now click on the 'Business' heading to get the drop-down description of the business features. (I can't get screen capture, sorry). It says 'Business seating - extra space and comfort'. It doesn't discriminate between the E190 and any other J seating. No asterisk or qualification there, just an (apparently) uniform service. For IFE it DOES say "Included (where offered). So they could qualify the J seating if minded to, in the actual booking, where the pax is more likely to look (as opposed to some other part of the web site).

I think it's a safe assumption for an airline to expect its customers will research the offering before booking, where it clearly states what is the "business" offering for each aircraft type before they take the plunge, after all JQ hardly have similar indications in their booking engine saying no skybed, Neil Perry meals, same for CX with its regional configs, etc etc.

Seating varies by aircraft type as well as cabin, if a passenger gets to the point where they are prepared to make a booking, one hopes they have researched what they are booking!

 

[JohnK]

Perhaps Virgin assumed a customer would check what to expect, and hence the lack of a need to say what has already been published, I know TAs have been briefed along similar lines but book your own customers do need to do their own research.

So you are saying it is up to the customer to research and understand the product?

I can see why the business class cabins are empty on most of my flights.

 

[serfty]

So you are saying it is up to the customer to research and understand the product?

....

It seems the case. FWIW, do your research before booking and never ASSUME - doing so can make an cough out of U, not ME!

...

I can see why the business class cabins are empty on most of my flights.

Now that's just coughy!

 

[markis10]

So you are saying it is up to the customer to research and understand the product?

I can see why the business class cabins are empty on most of my flights.

Indeed, a concept from the Roman times that resulted in the phrase Caveat Emptor! Getting what is promised versus what is expected can often be two different things.

 

[Justchecking]

I think it's safe to say from reading many threads on this and alike forums over the years that domestic J on any airline is great when it's an op-up\award or some other arrangement that hasn't cost the pax concerned $$ out of their pocket. Otherwise it's below most people's expectations. It is, what it is, an enticement for FFers to be loyal to an airline in the expectation that one day they'll get the seats up front as a reward, it's also a great money spinner as a last minute corporate booking since they are typically the only seats left.

Louis Vuitton sell $20k handbags. Are they really worth $20k a piece? Not last time I looked. They are a cache item that just make the brand look exclusive, Louis Vuitton makes most of it's money selling it's 'economy items' to wannabe's....scarves, wallets, cheaper bags, shoes. The appeal of the brand however rests on the $20k handbags and luggage items because no-one would want their wallets if they weren't known for the more expensive things.

 

[eastwest101]

I can see why the business class cabins are empty on most of my flights.

I can sympathize with you a bit JohnK, but my observation of the J loads on most of the E190 services I have been on then I think most people are doing a lot of "Caveat Emptor"-ing judging by how poorly loaded the J cabins in the E190s have been in comparison to B737 services. This will hopefully change once the proper J class is fitted out to the entire E190 fleet.

 

[JohnK]

Now that's just coughy!

Why is it coughy? Why is so difficult to delivery consistency? Don't offer business class on services that do not have business class. Lock that radio button so it cannot be selected.

Perhaps I am stupid for not looking at everything so closely but in my opinion VA are still a 'mickey mouse' airline and have a long way to go. This type of experience leaves a very sad taste in my mouth. When I booked the Cairns flights all I could think about was 737 and new business class product and a chance to try it on a ~3 hour flight. I did not even consider they had E190's in economy configuration.

By the way the CSM on the flight was extremely apologetic and says this happens all the time and encouraged me to send feedback to VA.

 

[muppet]

Why is it coughy? Why is so difficult to delivery consistency? Don't offer business class on services that do not have business class. Lock that radio button so it cannot be selected.

Why?
Many of us either like the product or even if they don't, want the option of business class service, seats up front and more space!

 

[tuapekastar]

I think the OP (along with anyone else who has purchased alleged business class seats) has been treated shabbily. It's fairly simple, you offer business class, you provide business class. While definitions of exactly what constitutes business class can vary, I think we can all agree in the 'ball-park' sense what we're expecting to get. I don't expect to have to go through the T&Cs with a fine-tooth comb to establish whether the vendor is providing what they say up-front they are (not saying I wouldn't do this, we are all different, but I really don't think one should have to in a case like this).

 

[mannej]

Why is it coughy? Why is so difficult to delivery consistency? Don't offer business class on services that do not have business class. Lock that radio button so it cannot be selected.

Perhaps I am stupid for not looking at everything so closely but in my opinion VA are still a 'mickey mouse' airline and have a long way to go. This type of experience leaves a very sad taste in my mouth. When I booked the Cairns flights all I could think about was 737 and new business class product and a chance to try it on a ~3 hour flight. I did not even consider they had E190's in economy configuration.

By the way the CSM on the flight was extremely apologetic and says this happens all the time and encouraged me to send feedback to VA.

If you are talking consistency of hard product, I believe the only airlines (out of the major 4) that deliver it domestically is Tiger

 

[JohnK]

If you are talking consistency of hard product, I believe the only airlines (out of the major 4) that deliver it domestically is Tiger

Not just the hard product.

Food is important is well and I think I described what VA thinks is adequate dinner on a 6:30pm flight.

And I am not simply just bashing VA here. This is the first time that I have purchased business class in Australia and I feel extremely let down. Qantas may well be the same but that is for another discussion.