Should business class be buyer beware?

[JohnK]

The OP makes a lot of posts on here. He is very knowledgable about airlines and their services. He doesn't normally get things wrong. He normally knows everything about a flight before he gets on it. I would describe him as an expert. His knowledge is worth listening to.

I don't always know everything and I make many mistakes and hopefully learn next time.

However this time he stuffed up. He didn't read the fine print. He assumed an aircraft instead of reading the fine print. He doesn't normally do that. So when he got on the flight and it wasn't what he thought (despite the fact it was exactly what was described on the website) he has thrown the teddies out of the cot. He thought he would come on here and everyone would tell him "you poor man, you should fight virgin they have ripped you off etc."

Yes I did stuff up. Totally stuffed up because I trusted Virgin not to sell this rubbish as businesss class.

All I have been reading recently on these threads is how Virgin has got it 100% right and how they care about the customer and how their business product is much better than Qantas and how their customer service is great.

Not quite and I am proof that they are the Virgin of old and do not deserve for people to be prasing them so highly.

The fact in my mind is so simple.

I stuffed up that is quite clear. What is also clear is that this product is not business class and should not be sold as such. Not even premium economy. Justifying it any other way is poor in my opinion and the response I received was one of arrogance and we can do what ever we want and we can justify it that way and I should have known better.

Just as well Qantas does not sell business class on the Dash 8's otherwise some people may get disappointed.

 

[JohnK]

Also reminded me that I thought you never flew business JohnK ?

Where in the post you quoted did I say I never flew business class? I actually thought it was a nice balanced post.

Short haul business class is a total waste of money in Australia.

At face value international business class is too expensive for me but there are ways to get that much cheaper as we all know via BMI, Avianca, US Airways, AAdvantage just to name a few.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Short haul business class is a total waste of money in Australia.
.

Unless of course somebody else is paying. Money is the highest form of flattery.

 

[JohnK]

I am actually just curious about the timeframe from when JohnK booked the flights to when they were flown? If they were booked a long way out it is possible that the CNS-TSV leg got changed from an ATR72 to an E190 and the TSV-BNE may have changed from a B738 to an E190 due to a schedule change or aircraft requirements?

Flights were booked ~3 months from date of travel. To be honest with you I have no idea what aircraft was scheduled for which leg and when I look at the emailed itinerary the aircraft is not listed on there either.

I was expecting a 737. Never in my wildest dreams did I think they were selling business class on economy class aircraft because 2-3 people are quite happy paying 3-4 times extra for a couple of extra drinks that are worth $15-$20.

I am not losing any sleep over this episode. Nor is it the end of the world. And is there any reason I should give up now? I have nothing further to lose other than the good money I wasted to sit in economy.

 

[eastwest101]

Agree to some extent. Others commented here that when VA were in the transition phase with a mixed fleet of B737-800, B737-700 and E190s with PE seating that they should have just priced it and sold it as PE Premium Economy or proper Business J class depending on the equipment being used. It drove everyone insane, as there was no predicting about what you would actually get when you paid for J class, i.e. it was a lottery that some people got sick of. The usual excuses of aircraft substitution and computer systems unable to implement this were used. But it did cause a lot of lively discussion and disagreement on many threads, but we cannot change history now, VA chose to do it that way and will wear the consequences for a while about the perception, pricing, inconsistency, discrepencies and the reasoning to have the marketing launch way ahead of what you can actually deliver. The E190 refit is as good as an admission as any, that to attract people to pay 3 to 6 times more for a ticket, you really have to offer a consistent and definate improvement in product than what the old PE was (which admittedly was maybe only priced at a 20-100% premium to the normal Y fares).

Anyway - among the things I have learnt here is to pay particular attention to the aircraft type and get help from other members whom may have flown the airline/class and type before. As an example - have a look at seatguru and see how many different types of configuration Singapore Airlines has for its B777's. If you were looking at booking J class on a B777 SQ flight from say SIN to IST - how much would you be prepared to pay? And what would you get?

 

[tuppaware]

I once did the same flight - on the E190's. Got two seats to myself, business class meal and I got an email later on refunding the points I had spent on the seat because it wasn't a J Class Plane.

I think a polite email to virgin might of helped you.

 

[Sprucegoose]

I once did the same flight - on the E190's. Got two seats to myself, business class meal and I got an email later on refunding the points I had spent on the seat because it wasn't a J Class Plane.

I think a polite email to virgin might of helped you.

making it a win win for both parties generally does assist in closing out an issue.

 

[JohnK]

Quite frankly I'm just staggered that someone with 18,905 posts on this website could get this so wrong. It will make me look more critically at those post-counts from now. I mean sure 99% of my posts are utter babble, but hell at least I've only made a 100 or so of 'em!

Post counts don't mean much. Most of my posts are utter babble.

Complaining effectively is a real skill.

And I am lacking that skill but I have not finished with this one just yet.

And even if I do lose I do not care. I have already lost my money and an upgrade on an inadequate product. I lost more on the pokies the other night. Not the end of the world.

What is more important is today I have managed to resolve 2 other issues, one with Citibank overcharging interest on balance transfers and they are compensating me handsomely and the other is Cathay rang and apologised for damaging my golf bag in July and that it has taken this long to process my request and they will refund money to my account.

 

[Ausbt]

I lost more on the pokies the other night. Not the end of the world.

Well at least you've got a ready-made New Year's resolution right-there! ...and not so fast on the end-of-world optimism, best wait for after 10:11 pm AESDT just to ensure those Mayan's weren't really onto something.

Well done on the Citibank/Cathy issues as well. I recently had a very lovely result with our dear friends VA myself over a relatively minor issue. My 'complaint' had just the right balance of DYKWIA-umbrage and pandering/sucking-up. It delivered, big time, and I'll be a happy little Virgin for a good while yet

 

[Jack_OC]

Short haul business class is a total waste of money in Australia.

Fully agree, but not just in Australia, that's true everywhere. But that comment implies that you know what you missed out on wouldn't have been anything to write home about anyway. So what's the big deal?

Apologies if someone else has already mentioned this, but the practice of selling business class fares for seats that are no different to economy is quite common on short flights in other countries. Within the last year alone I have had this experience with BA, Air France and LOT. Coincidentally, the latter example was in an E190, and it was exactly the same deal as with VA. I think I also once had this experience with a so-called First fare on AA, but I might be imagining that.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Fully agree, but not just in Australia, that's true everywhere. But that comment implies that you know what you missed out on wouldn't have been anything to write home about anyway. So what's the big deal?

Apologies if someone else has already mentioned this, but the practice of selling business class fares for seats that are no different to economy is quite common on short flights in other countries. Within the last year alone I have had this experience with BA, Air France and LOT. Coincidentally, the latter example was in an E190, and it was exactly the same deal as with VA. I think I also once had this experience with a so-called First fare on AA, but I might be imagining that.

Quite a subjective assessment IMHO. I know people that charge hourly rates higher than some business class airfares, if they get some productive time onboard then thats paid for itself.

I would agree that for self funded flyers on what I would term 'average' remuneration, then yes your point could be considered with genuine validity.

 

[marcoakis]

Hi JohnK,

This exact issue happened to me when I flew business MEL-ADL return in business class. On the flight ADL-MEL, the seats were exactly the same as economy. I felt ripped off! I of course emailed virgin complaining about the issue and this was their answer:

Thank you for your feedback which we have received here within the Guest Relations department as we appreciate the time taken to make us aware of your comments and concerns.

Mr Delgado, it was with regret to read of your concerns regarding your recent flight experience from Adelaide to Melbourne 14 October 2012. We do have a number of Embraer aircraft within our fleet that are a smaller aircraft, although do provide the Business class product. Business class seating can vary dependent upon aircraft type, however, we do provide the option to view the aircraft being booked and aircraft information so that our guests may make an informed decision in regards to which aircraft they do wish to travel on (please see example below):

Unfortunately, we do not offer compensation for travel in Business class on an Embraer aircraft. Although the aircraft is a different and smaller type than our Boeing aircraft, we are unable to guarantee the exact same Business class seating product on all aircraft types. The product, apart from Boeing Business class seating, however, are still available for our Business guests, including increased fare flexibility, increased baggage allowance, included food and beverage/inflight entertainment, blocked seat next to you to ensure extra room (in lieu of tray table), priority check in/boarding/baggage and enhanced service.

Mr Delgado, I apologise if the expectations were not met on this occasion, and as such, I have logged your feedback as an official complaint to ensure that our senior management team are made aware of your disappointment with the Business class product provided on the Embraer aircraft.

In closing, we would like to thank you once again for taking the time to contact us here at Virgin Australia and for allowing me the opportunity to respond. I understand your disappointment; however, I do sincerely hope that we will have the opportunity to welcome you back on board in the near future for a more positive experience and regain your faith in our Business class product and services.


Kind Regards

 

[Jack_OC]

Quite a subjective assessment IMHO.

No question that opinions on value for money are always highly subjective.

I know people that charge hourly rates higher than some business class airfares, if they get some productive time onboard then thats paid for itself.

I would agree that for self funded flyers on what I would term 'average' remuneration, then yes your point could be considered with genuine validity.

In case it wasn’t clear, I was taking about short flights, e.g. 1-2 hrs. Even in a proper J seat, I don’t think many people get a huge amount done on a flight that short. And on the other hand, it is quite possible to get some work done even in Y. So IMHO, the incremental benefit in terms of productivity on a short flight is minimal. As such, I’m perfectly happy to travel in Y on short flights, regardless of whether it’s being paid for by my employer or myself. And as my income has increased, my opinion on that has not changed in the slightest. It’s a very different story on longer flights though, especially if I’m going to need to sleep.

 

[eastwest101]

Apologies if someone else has already mentioned this, but the practice of selling business class fares for seats that are no different to economy is quite common on short flights in other countries. Within the last year alone I have had this experience with BA, Air France and LOT.

Apples and oranges. Have a good look at the fares in Europe compared to Australia, the Eurobusiness you refer to is often priced at 1.4 to 2.5 times the price of Y and is often sectors 1 to 2.5 hours long, in Australia you can see J fares from 3x up to 5x the price of Y fares (sometimes even more) and the sectors can vary from 2 to 5 hours.

 

[JohnK]

This exact issue happened to me when I flew business MEL-ADL return in business class. On the flight ADL-MEL, the seats were exactly the same as economy. I felt ripped off! I of course emailed virgin complaining about the issue and this was their answer:

Welmoe to AFF marcoakis!

That response is the same as mine so all that was used was a form letter? Extremely disappointing is all I can say and very amateurish and clearly a company that has no idea on the meaning of customer service. Virgin has a long way to go before they can see professionalism in the distance.

 

[Jack_OC]

Apples and oranges. Have a good look at the fares in Europe compared to Australia, the Eurobusiness you refer to is often priced at 1.4 to 2.5 times the price of Y and is often sectors 1 to 2.5 hours long, in Australia you can see J fares from 3x up to 5x the price of Y fares (sometimes even more) and the sectors can vary from 2 to 5 hours.

Do Virgin fly the E190 with this configuration on 5 hour flights?? I didn't think so. Anyway, JohnK's examples were 1hr 45 mins and 3 hrs, respectively, i.e. similar to the routes in Europe where the same practice occurs.

With regard to the fare differential, no idea where you produced those figures from, but I don't think they are at all representative. For example, one route where I've travelled "Business" recently but got the same seat as in economy was LHR-DUB with BA. Just had a quick look at some random dates about a month from now on that route, and Y fares start at GBP59, while J starts at GBP348. That makes J almost 6 times the price of Y. Meanwhile, on one of the routes mentioned by JohnK (TSV-BNE with Virgin) on the same date, J fares can be had for less than 3 times the Y fare ($349 vs $119). No doubt it depends on many factors and the differential is by no means constant, but I think it's fair to say I was not comparing apples and oranges.

 

[muppet]

Do Virgin fly the E190 with this configuration on 5 hour flights?? I didn't think so. Anyway, JohnK's examples were 1hr 45 mins and 3 hrs, respectively, i.e. similar to the routes in Europe where the same practice occurs.

With regard to the fare differential, no idea where you produced those figures from, but I don't think they are at all representative. For example, one route where I've travelled "Business" recently but got the same seat as in economy was LHR-DUB with BA. Just had a quick look at some random dates about a month from now on that route, and Y fares start at GBP59, while J starts at GBP348. That makes J almost 6 times the price of Y. Meanwhile, on one of the routes mentioned by JohnK (TSV-BNE with Virgin) on the same date, J fares can be had for less than 3 times the Y fare ($349 vs $119). No doubt it depends on many factors and the differential is by no means constant, but I think it's fair to say I was not comparing apples and oranges.

On many BA City Flyer routes they use E190/170s and the Club seats are exactly the same, unlike DJ where there is extra leg room and a blocked seat next to you.

Not that I'm defending the practice of crummy J products - I'm just glad there's a crummy option, rather than all Y.

When all the complainers started last time, DJ completely dropped the J product in PE seating that resulted in many of my J bookings being unceremoniously downgraded to Y. Ie no middle seat blocked, no food etc. even thought they could have delivered it all (except the seat).

 

[JohnK]

Fully agree, but not just in Australia, that's true everywhere.

Not quite. Earlier this month I booked a CX TPE-HKG-BKK-HKG-TPE in almost real business class for ~AUD737. Compare that with ~AUD600 for a SYD-MEL one-way flight in business class.

We do get ripped off in Australia but selling economy seats as business class is a precedence in this country. Well to me anyway.

But that comment implies that you know what you missed out on wouldn't have been anything to write home about anyway. So what's the big deal?

I overpaid for a "business class" flight to sit in economy and I also used a valuable complimentary upgrade to sit in economy. I both cases I paid ~AUD200 where I could have paid ~AUD113.60 each way to sit in row 3 and have 2-3 beers less. That is the big deal.

 

[The Rok]

I can't believe this thread is still going?

Not that my opinion counts but I think VA should do the right thing and return JohnK's complimentary upgrade certificate.

If we were allowed to gift them I would give you one of mine, for the Christmas spirit!

 

[JohnK]

I can't relieve this thread is still going?

Let's for 1 minute forget my complaint about my experience.

I still think it is wrong for Virgin to be selling Business class in economy seats and putting all the blame on the customer to be buyer beware.

And then to see another customer service response as a form letter is appalling. We don't deserve to have an individual tailored response? Or are they too busy dealing with complaints?