Taking kids out of school for OS holidays

[bPeteb]

Definitely take them out of school.Our son was taken on tour during term time.Has a double degree plus an MBA from one of the top US business schools.
I was privileged to attend an opportunity school in years 4,5 in NSW.We went on school excursions in term time.Certainly didn,t hold me back.
I also took a week off in High School to play in the Australian chess championships.Didn't win but beat a future World Master and drew with another one.Still one of the memorable moments of my life.
So go for it.

I remember OC school well. I went to Sutherland Public School for 5th and 6th class. Loved the weekly excursions to the zoo, museums, art gallery of NSW, and the one or two night trips away each term.

 

[Moody]

I understand that it's the law for children to attend school (I read the pdf, thanks, and agree to a point), it was more the concept of asking for permission for your child to be absent. The principal says no, you go away in any case, what are they going to do?

Mark the absent days against the student's attendance record as "Unjustified". What happens next is the $64 question .... if it is a once-off occurrence for a week or two then probably not much. If it is more regular and/or done without explanation then further action is likely.

 

[Moody]

I remember OC school well. I went to Sutherland Public School for 5th and 6th class. Loved the weekly excursions to the zoo, museums, art gallery of NSW, and the one or two night trips away each term.

Yes - but these are all approved absences. What we are talking about here are unapproved absences, and the ramifications for the school, parents, and (most importantly) the students.

In juxtaposition .... both my kids had 100% attendance records last year but they also had many days that they weren't at school. Probably in the order of 20 days each - but all approved by the school. They also both had less than spectacular academic results partly as a result of said absences, so this year they have both cut back on the extra-curricular activities and are attending maths coaching to catch up with their peers.

So whilst I agree that travel broadens the mind and is a valuable education experience, it should be done in addition to the child's formal education rather than instead of it. Where feasible.

[I should confess that we have been sinners on three occasions ourselves, but not since the kids have started high school.]

 

[burmans]

I must admit I find it somewhat amusing that some people on this thread are stating their well founded opinion that "taking kids out of school does not affect them" perhaps strongly influenced by their own desires to have cheaper holidays and then retrospectively looking for arguments to support that position. The trouble is that of course the evidence is in fact quite strong that even relatively short absences from school do fairly quickly have a negative impact on their education.

Now I am no pariah here, I myself have taken my kids out of school for two weeks to go to Europe and as my kids are somewhat history geeks justified it by the argument that they'd learn more than being in school, fortunately the school agreed. But realistically I must say I think this depends a huge amount on what you actually do on your holiday, if you really do engage with the culture, the history, the people, go to museums, explore historical sites etc. then it probably is better than just staying at school. If you go to Bali, Fji, Thailand, Queensland, stay at the beach, spend your time shopping when you're not at the beach, stay and eat at "westernised" resorts with minimal "local/cultural" exposure, well you're probably not really adding much value that really justifies taking them out of school. And I actually think far more people fall into the second category that are prepared to admit it.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I must admit I find it somewhat amusing that some people on this thread are stating their well founded opinion that "taking kids out of school does not affect them" perhaps strongly influenced by their own desires to have cheaper holidays and then retrospectively looking for arguments to support that position. The trouble is that of course the evidence is in fact quite strong that even relatively short absences from school do fairly quickly have a negative impact on their education.

Now I am no pariah here, I myself have taken my kids out of school for two weeks to go to Europe and as my kids are somewhat history geeks justified it by the argument that they'd learn more than being in school, fortunately the school agreed. But realistically I must say I think this depends a huge amount on what you actually do on your holiday, if you really do engage with the culture, the history, the people, go to museums, explore historical sites etc. then it probably is better than just staying at school. If you go to Bali, Fji, Thailand, Queensland, stay at the beach, spend your time shopping when you're not at the beach, stay and eat at "westernised" resorts with minimal "local/cultural" exposure, well you're probably not really adding much value that really justifies taking them out of school. And I actually think far more people fall into the second category that are prepared to admit it.

As I said earlier you have to assess whether your child can cope or not. Did it make any difference to our kids' atars taking them out of school in year 11 and 12? - yes a little and we (and they) knew it would. Did it make any difference to what they wanted to do - absolutely not. All 3 easily got into the courses they wanted to do at ANU (Master FM even received a scholarship). They were all very maths and science oriented, but we complemented that with travel.

Some of the things we did over the years - Barcelona - which has a wonderful museum that included the civil war in the 1930s and of course the Sagrada Familia where we climbed to the top. Granada and the Moorish influences, all the Spanish cathedrals and their amazing treasuries. Rome - so much history there. Paris - their favourite was Les Invalides and Napoleon's tomb (Mr FM is a bit of a military buff and spent ages explaining to them). Kiev - the catacombs under the city and the wonderful war museum and statues of Lenin. Yalta - saw the room where the conference was held and the rest of the Palace. visited Artek which used to be a training camp for children who would be USSR leaders and then was turned into a gifted and talented camp. this was in 1999 and they saw first hand the Ukrainian/Russian problems and also the Tatars starting to come back to the Crimea. Crete and the Minoan history. I could go on for hours! I don't believe that you could replicate what they learned in a classroom. We were tied to specific dates for these visits which fell outside school holidays, but none of us have ever regretted these expeditions. We did do the Queensland beach holidays as well but they were always in school holidays.

 

[Warks]

Well for us it will only be 7 days of school (and kids don't even seem to attend the last day of term these days) and that will be the last time as it's senior school next year and it's not likely we'll be travelling outside school hols again anyway.

Does anyone take their uni age children (adults) travelling with them?

 

[Bindibuys]

Does anyone take their uni age children (adults) travelling with them?

Yes, but planing around assignments/exams etc is more difficult, so have only travelled once during semester, on a short 2 week USA trip, she simply submitted her work on-line, and did a "make-up" exam when she returned.
Our usual trips are 6 weeks in length. Though that does not stop her from asking can she come with us (with mum paying of course.....)

 

[Flying mermaid]

Well for us it will only be 7 days of school (and kids don't even seem to attend the last day of term these days) and that will be the last time as it's senior school next year and it's not likely we'll be travelling outside school hols again anyway.

Does anyone take their uni age children (adults) travelling with them?

We have but it is usually around exams. we did a round the world in 2012 and we left a few weeks early went South Africa and then London. Miss FM joined us in London straight after exams. traveled with us in the USA for a month then she went back to Uni and we continued for another 10 days. Bit more difficult logistically but doable. Last year Uni allowed her to take 2 weeks off to go to her Grandmother's 90th birthday - I find travelling with adult kids really fun.

 

[lovestotravel]

Oh yes when a child goes for a job in 2-12 years the school report card is going to make a big difference.................

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I'm bemused by the suggestions that "even short absences negatively affect a school students learning". I guess those reports are from the proponents of the failed social experiments that have permeated the school system over the last half a century or so. The poor level of LLN that's being experienced is (I suggest) far more prevalent with the young adults who have NOT been fortunate enough to have their parents take them travelling. I also disagree that "sitting on a beach in Bali" shouldn't count............what bullocks. Many families struggle to have quality family time together and if sitting on beach in Bali allows for some great family time, then great.......that can be a far more positive experience than sitting in a classroom watching the clock tick by.

I've also taken my kids out of school and we've even had teachers comment about how noticeable (in a good way) the experience was. Our trips have been both, relaxation (skiing holidays, beach holidays, etc) but also very educational holidays. All my kids have been to Canberra (not everyone from Qld can say that, believe it or not) and they have all been to (and I believe enjoyed), question time in Parliament, Questacon, the National Gallery, the National Museum, the Carillon, the National War Memorial etc and they've also been to many other art galleries, museums and national parks. Not just that, but they've climbed Mt.Kosciuszko, Mt Warning, one of the pyramids (at Stanthorpe) and Bald Rock. They've swum with sharks, snorkelled the Great Barrier Reef and sailed the Whitsundays. They've played pool at Innamincka and donated their pocket money to Royal Flying Doctors before travelling the Strzelecki Track whilst leaning about the oil and gas fields around that region and the cattle rustler who first used that route (and was, I think, eventually employed to show the authorities where to go). They've caught reef fish for dinner on a beach fire and dined in quality restaurants (hang, they can even hold a knife and fork correctly, which is more than I can say for some....is that taught in school??)......they've cooked damper in hot coals and sipped lattes in beach cafes...........oh, and they've also done pretty well in their school grades with my eldest daughter now at uni, my son's just secured an apprenticeship and my youngest is doing very well with most grades and she has a Japanese exam next week, which she does well at. I also remember one of my sons teachers pulling me aside one afternoon when he was in year 8 and he asked me if all his stories he tells the class are true....like a place called Bald Rock which is a the largest single exposed granite rock in Australia and second in size only to Uluru..........that teacher had no idea, and it's only a couple of hours drive from where he lives......who's the teacher and who's the student??

When digital TV was first introduced, Channel 10 (I think) broadcast a digital channel that was designed to highlight the crystal clarity of digital so they broadcast high definition images of Australian landscapes, cities, regional towns and natural wonders. I still remember sitting in our caravan one trip watching them, with our kids saying "oh that's such in such, we've been there" and "oh remember that's the really old house near the Dubbo Zoo....remember Dad" or "look there's the Parkes radio telescope.....remember it was moving when we were there". Please don't ever try to tell me kids don't benefit HUGELY by travel at a young(ish) age, because I know that's just rubbish.

Oh and I've just mentioned Australia......they've all been OS a few times as well! I'm not anti-teacher, I had two grandparents who were teachers, my father was a teacher, my sister is a teacher, I have two cousins who are teachers.....oh and I also teach.....I'm just anti people who can't understand learning starts the day we are born and finishes when we die and sitting in a classroom is a very, very small part of that.

 

[cove]

I know a child who is being home schooled. He will still be eligible to get into the best Perth universities.

 

[harvyk]

learning starts the day we are born and finishes when we die and sitting in a classroom is a very, very small part of that.

Couldn't agree more...

 

[burmans]

I know a child who is being home schooled. He will still be eligible to get into the best Perth universities.

Of course there are plenty of kids who will do well under any circumstance. But given you actually don't get to compare the performance of this one individual with their "equivalent" who hasn't been home schooled I'm frankly not sure of the value of this statement. Similarly the statement that I've taken my kids out of school and it hasn't affected them. How realistically can we possibly know if we don't have a "control" to compare them to. But the statistical evidence indicate their is such a impact regardless of our opinions.

As I said before I'm no pariah too and have taken my kids away too but I'm not so inclined to ignore the evidence and statistics just because they don't fit my desire to travel. Of course travel CAN be great for kids education but that does not mean it always is. On balance I'm probably still a fan of travel for children (and have certainly instilled in them a love of travel) but if the education profession tells us there are downsides I'm always inclined to listen.

I too come from a family of teachers. One thing that always resonates with me is that parents always have the view they know everything about education because they have been to school themselves. Seriously, I go to the doctor too, but it doesn't mean I think I can do their job!

 

[Flying mermaid]

Oh yes when a child goes for a job in 2-12 years the school report card is going to make a big difference.................

Actually when Miss FM applied for her first teaching position last year, the application form seemed to suggest that they wanted all her school results. We discussed it and decided that was plain silly and she just put down her year 12 results, as well as Uni results - it was an application for an experienced teacher, not a graduate!

At at the interview they asked her why she was doing teaching when she had such strong year 12 results - I found that a bit sad that even teachers seemed to feel that teaching was only for those who couldn't get into higher paying careers. Miss FM has a real passion for teaching - I hope it lasts.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I too come from a family of teachers. One thing that always resonates with me is that parents always have the view they know everything about education because they have been to school themselves. Seriously, I go to the doctor too, but it doesn't mean I think I can do their job!

Initially I thought that was not a bad point - my oldest daughter is a doctor and people who self diagnose can be a bit annoying, However I don't think it is just about education - when we take our children out of school to travel we are looking a lot broader than educational outcomes - personal development and family bonding among them and I am not sure a teacher is any more qualified than I am in those areas. Anyway we have our games night tomorrow and my teacher daughter should be coming plus another friend who is a Deputy Principal. I think I will raise this issue and see where it ends up - sometimes we get so involved in interesting discussions the games get forgotten.

 

[harvyk]

One thing that always resonates with me is that parents always have the view they know everything about education because they have been to school themselves. Seriously, I go to the doctor too, but it doesn't mean I think I can do their job!

Not sure I can agree with that. Let's just take a look at the doctor example, if you cut your knee, do you immediately go to the doctor just in case? Or do you make a self determination that you'll be alright with a band-aid and perhaps a bit of antiseptic wash? You wake up feeling a little off, again do you go to the doctor to confirm that it's just a 24 hour bug, or do you take a couple of panadol and go back to bed?

In terms of my kids education, sure I haven't had the training on how to control a class room of 30 little darlings, but that does not mean that I can't have an opinion on what is best for my own children based on my own set of experiences, beliefs and research. For example, we've chosen an out of area school for our children since we feel it is a better school than the one we're in area for. If we'd followed the department of education we'd have simply placed our children in the in area school despite us feeling that there are better schools out there. We've taken the time to discuss things with my childrens teachers, and get outside assistance where we've felt it necessary because as much as everyone involved in the teaching of my children want to do their best, the reality is that my children are simply one of many that they see each day.

So simply saying "parents should not have an opinion because that opinion is based on their own beliefs and not actual training" is a pretty big cop out, and it simply assumes that the system knows best, since ultimately it is my responsibility (both morally and legally) to help my children become functional members of society.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

given you actually don't get to compare the performance of this one individual with their "equivalent" who hasn't been home schooled I'm frankly not sure of the value of this statement. Similarly the statement that I've taken my kids out of school and it hasn't affected them. How realistically can we possibly know if we don't have a "control" to compare them to. But the statistical evidence indicate their is such a impact regardless of our opinions.

Do we actually have statistical evidence comparing those who take their kids on holiday during school term with those who do not? I believe the only measure that is applied statistically is absenteeism in general which includes short term illness, long term illness and truancy, all of which sways the validity of judging the holiday kids against no absentee kids.

As for the "control" for comparision, sure we have it. It's the Australian Schools Average (National average) and other base line averages before that. Whether a particular home schooled child may have achieved better grades if they attended a formal school is as irrelevant as whether a formally schooled student may have achieved better grades if they were home schooled....or in fact if they went to a different school or a private school or a public school. We can only live a part of our lives once, so no one can give an absolute answer, but that is reciprocated regardless of how or where they were schooled. Ever see that Robin williams movie RV? Sure it's fiction but they had some home schooled kids that did quite well with their education. Could they have done better if they went to a formal school? Perhaps. Could they have done worse? Perhaps. The point that I'm trying to make is that if the kids benefit, and their grades are not "statistically" suffering, then why do some within the education system argue that those parents should be punished (which usually means punishing the kids for their parents decisions)? Could it possibly be a certain number within the education system fear their jobs if their failures are actually highlighted too clearly.

 

[ellen10]

I have read all the comments on this thread and I think that the majority of poster's children are well rounded and intelligent children. And these children have greatly benefited from the cultural and variety of experiences that travel opens up to children.

I think the real problem that the education department is seeing is that there are vast numbers of chiildren missing school and really struggling to catch up. This is not only holidays but many short "unexplained" absences. This relates more to the high school experience I feel.
For example, if a child misses 4 weeks of school, that is 6-8 periods each week of Math and problably 2 topics that the class has covered and the holiday child will need to catch up when they return whilst still doing their regular work load.

I know of one family in a local Catholis school, who when enquriing about taking their children out for a 4 week holiday was told that it will be the family's responsibility to make sure their children have caught up on work missed and that may require them to hire a tutor.

We took our children out of school in Primary for 2 family holidays. But when it got to the later years in high school my older son refused to go, as the worry of catching up on work missed would be too stressful. In fact he hardly ever missed a day sick of school in high school. He is now a doctor and he loves to travel and worked in England for 2 years. But he said he is still glad he did not miss too much school.

This is only my reflection and experience.

 

[Moody]

...So simply saying "parents should not have an opinion because that opinion is based on their own beliefs and not actual training" is a pretty big cop out, and it simply assumes that the system knows best, since ultimately it is my responsibility (both morally and legally) to help my children become functional members of society.

Morally? - no argument.
Legally? - you are obliged to ensure your children are enrolled in and attend school. There are exceptions but taking the kids out of school mid-term to save money is not one of them.

If you want to take charge of your children's education then their are ways to do this, but if you let the government take charge then you need to follow their rules. It's a simple concept and it worries me that so many here don't understand it.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I have read all the comments on this thread and I think that the majority of poster's children are well rounded and intelligent children. And these children have greatly benefited from the cultural and variety of experiences that travel opens up to children.

I think the real problem that the education department is seeing is that there are vast numbers of chiildren missing school and really struggling to catch up. This is not only holidays but many short "unexplained" absences. This relates more to the high school experience I feel.
For example, if a child misses 4 weeks of school, that is 6-8 periods each week of Math and problably 2 topics that the class has covered and the holiday child will need to catch up when they return whilst still doing their regular work load.

I know of one family in a local Catholis school, who when enquriing about taking their children out for a 4 week holiday was told that it will be the family's responsibility to make sure their children have caught up on work missed and that may require them to hire a tutor.

We took our children out of school in Primary for 2 family holidays. But when it got to the later years in high school my older son refused to go, as the worry of catching up on work missed would be too stressful. In fact he hardly ever missed a day sick of school in high school. He is now a doctor and he loves to travel and worked in England for 2 years. But he said he is still glad he did not miss too much school.

This is only my reflection and experience.

I think it is such an individual decision. We always asked permission from the school (which you pretty much have to do for year 11 and 12 because of otherwise you run into problems with the ACT board of senior school studies). We also made it the kids' responsibility to talk to their teachers and ensure they caught up with any material they were missing and pre did assignments. Our doctor daughter was happy to miss school in year 11 and 12. The other two wanted to settle into year 11 first, but then were happy to miss school for year 12. For some kids missing chunks of school would be a total disaster and not necessarily because of being less able students - some would just find it stressful to have missed material. Others take it in their stride. It is up to you as a parent (in consultation with your child), to decide what will work for them. We were always appreciative of the teachers at our school that they were so cooperative.