The Dark side of Japan Tourism.

[Pushka]

You could say this about almost any country. Most Middle Eastern countries have even stricter laws and much harsher penalties. I know many here have no problems visiting Doha or Dubai, and most visits go without incident, as do most visits to Japan.

Even our own country, the fact you can be sued for a Facebook post would seem quite dystopian to others.

I’m sure if something like this happened to me I’d be traumatised and never want to return to that country, but the sad fact is many countries, even ones we call developed, do not share our ideas of human rights. Possibly even our own.

All true. Maybe off topic but defamation has existed as a civil crime for as long as communications existed. Facebook just means the media on which defamation can occur is increasing.

I guess the difference here though is that it’s not a criminal action according to what happened but ‘just’ an accident where both parties are somewhat responsible. There was no intent to do anything wrong.

And doing a simple act like Driving which I’m guessing most of us here have driven overseas. We’d expect be questioned. Maybe detained for a while. Like a couple of hours . Then released after having paid a fine or whatever. But who would expect to end up in jail for four or five nights and that is ‘getting off lightly’.

 

[skilad]

You could say this about almost any country. Most Middle Eastern countries have even stricter laws and much harsher penalties. I know many here have no problems visiting Doha or Dubai, and most visits go without incident, as do most visits to Japan.

Even our own country, the fact you can be sued for a Facebook post would seem quite dystopian to others.

I’m sure if something like this happened to me I’d be traumatised and never want to return to that country, but the sad fact is many countries, even ones we call developed, do not share our ideas of human rights. Possibly even our own.

Why would being sued for a Facebook post seem dystopian? Social media is effectively replacing the old print media and if you defame someone, the same rules should apply.

Difference is it would be a long process, and you are not going to be put in jail for two weeks while authorities work out what to do with you.

Don't get me wrong as I love Japan, but this (and for that matter their laws around child custody) are quite scary and bring home to roost how you could expect to be treated as a foreigner when things go wrong.

 

[justinbrett]

All true. Maybe off topic but defamation has existed as a civil crime for as long as communications existed. Facebook just means the media on which defamation can occur is increasing.

I guess the difference here though is that it’s not a criminal action according to what happened but ‘just’ an accident where both parties are somewhat responsible. There was no intent to do anything wrong.

And doing a simple act like Driving which I’m guessing most of us here have driven overseas. We’d expect be questioned. Maybe detained for a while. Like a couple of hours . Then released after having paid a fine or whatever. But who would expect to end up in jail for four or five nights and that is ‘getting off lightly’.

Why would being sued for a Facebook post seem dystopian? Social media is effectively replacing the old print media and if you defame someone, the same rules should apply.

Difference is it would be a long process, and you are not going to be put in jail for two weeks while authorities work out what to do with you.

Don't get me wrong as I love Japan, but this (and for that matter their laws around child custody) are quite scary and bring home to roost how you could expect to be treated as a foreigner when things go wrong.

But that’s my point. These ideas seem normal to you as Australians. To an American, with the first amendment, it is dystopian. Or at least authoritarian. Ask any lawyer about the differences between UK/AU defamation law and those of the US.

To bring this back on topic, I brought this up to highlight that these differences are everywhere once you scratch the surface.

 

[skilad]

But that’s my point. These ideas seem normal to you as Australians. To an American, with the first amendment, it is dystopian. Or at least authoritarian. Ask any lawyer about the differences between UK/AU defamation law and those of the US.

To bring this back on topic, I brought this up to highlight that these differences are everywhere once you scratch the surface.

Of course, and I get what you are saying. But giving the example of defamation law to highlight differences between countries sits rather strangely given what has gone on here.

 

[LCC]

The whole scenario seems like an outrageous overreaction by the authorities to a MVA situation which must happen surely very frequently. I am glad you have come through relatively OK @drron, are you hopeful of getting any of your costs re-imbursed from your travel insurance?

 

[justinbrett]

Of course, and I get what you are saying. But giving the example of defamation law to highlight differences between countries sits rather strangely given what has gone on here.

I was not trying to say one is worse than the other, just highlighting what we think is acceptable is unacceptable to others, and vice versa.

If this was a Japanese language forum there would be many defending the Japanese laws.

 

[moa999]

whole scenario seems like an outrageous overreaction by the authorities to a MVA situation

I think unfortunately for drron the broken clavicle probably made this more than a simple MVA.

And as per posts above, detention during investigation is the norm in Japan for many offences, whether you are a local or foreigner (although obviously more difficult for foreigners with the added language issues)

In Australia, any broken bone puts an incident into grevious bodily harm territory if a police officer determines that you might have been negligent.

In NSW at least thats a max $2200 fine and/or 9 months imprisonment (unlikely on a first offence).

But if you happened to have been a foreign tourist involved in such an incident, while you probably would have been immediately bailed, I don't think it would be wrapped up within 5 days even if you were pleading guilty, and you might be stuck in Australia for a while.

Of interest were either of drron's lawyers able to review the CCTV? And what was their view of the incident?

 

[Quickstatus]

@drron

This thread has been linked to in a skiing Facebook page

 

[Quickstatus]

just highlighting what we think is acceptable is unacceptable to others, and vice versa.

Sure, we do come with preconceptions / assumptions regarding acceptable notions of justice when visiting another country.

However it does not make the operarion of Japanese criminal justice system acceptable and it is an important insight for travellers to Japan.

 

[Justinf]

Given the low crime rate rate in Japan, is there a chance that bored cops go overboard in situations like that?
Or am I being naive?

 

[justinbrett]

Sure, we do come with preconceptions / assumptions regarding acceptable notions of justice when visiting another country.

However it does not make the operarion of Japanese criminal justice system acceptable and it is an important insight for travellers to Japan.

I think the outcomes here, while degrading and humiliating, pale in comparison to a lot of other countries where they will put you to death, or indefinite imprisonment.

Remember the story in Dubai about the guy who squeezed passed an Emirati at a bar in Dubai? Briton jailed for three months in Dubai for touching man's hip

I think perhaps people think of Japan as Hello Kitty (and forget about the ugly period in the 40s) whereas other places like the Middle East and SE Asia are known for this kind of thing. Yet people still travel.

 

[Ansett Nostalgic]

Get a big payday from Today Tonight and use the cash to fund a legal campaign against Japan in the UN human rights mechanisms you mention.

 

[Pushka]

I think the outcomes here, while degrading and humiliating, pale in comparison to a lot of other countries where they will put you to death, or indefinite imprisonment.

Remember the story in Dubai about the guy who squeezed passed an Emirati at a bar in Dubai? Briton jailed for three months in Dubai for touching man's hip

I think perhaps people think of Japan as Hello Kitty (and forget about the ugly period in the 40s) whereas other places like the Middle East and SE Asia are known for this kind of thing. Yet people still travel.

Yes. But I think it's a case of awareness. The media and travel guides constantly remind us of how to behave in the Middle East and so we know the issues and so act accordingly. And are careful. But DrRons story has made a big difference to how we might do things in Japan. Or least be more aware.

Off topic. We were on a cruise that touched into Saudi Arabia just last year. An American woman who we knew to be very demanding, went up to the Saudi Tour guide, dressed in their appropriate clothing, and touched him deliberately on his head to feel his headwear. I swear I gasped out loud at her complete rudeness. And well outrageous behaviour as we'd all been cautioned before getting off the ship. He did ignore it but he must have been seething inside.

 

[UP4014]

I think the outcomes here, while degrading and humiliating, pale in comparison to a lot of other countries where they will put you to death, or indefinite imprisonment.

Remember the story in Dubai about the guy who squeezed passed an Emirati at a bar in Dubai? Briton jailed for three months in Dubai for touching man's hip

I think perhaps people think of Japan as Hello Kitty (and forget about the ugly period in the 40s) whereas other places like the Middle East and SE Asia are known for this kind of thing. Yet people still travel.

I get what you are saying. Not being as bad as another country doesn’t make it acceptable though.

 

[RooFlyer]

I just looked at Smartraveller for Japan and local laws. In the first bullet point section, there is mention of the issues regarding child custody but nothing about the experience type that drron had.

you have to click on See more and it goes down the page with more discussion where at the bottom, there is this

Be aware that you won't be allowed to make a phone call if you are arrested in Japan. You can also be detained for up to 23 days without any formal charge.

I don’t think that goes anywhere near the experience that drron had. I think that more reflects greater negative experience of drron rather than the smarttraveller skimming over things.

 

[dajop]

Given the low crime rate rate in Japan, is there a chance that bored cops go overboard in situations like that?
Or am I being naive?

Cause and effect reversed perhaps?

 

[Quickstatus]

I think perhaps people think of Japan as Hello Kitty (and forget about the ugly period in the 40s) whereas other places like the Middle East and SE Asia are known for this kind of thing. Yet people still travel.

No, this has nothing to do with wartime Japan This is about modern Japan and one of its institutions. We dont need to re/prosecute what happened 80yr ago because this is about today. I have an awareness of the differences between Western and Middle east judicial systems but until now did not know that Japan has judicial norms that one would not expect in a very free and democratic country,

 

[justinbrett]

I get what you are saying. Not being as bad as another country doesn’t make it acceptable though.

Not my point. And I didn’t say it was acceptable.

More that once you leave Australia you have to understand cultural norms are different, and more importantly, so are judicial systems.

Yes. But I think it's a case of awareness. The media and travel guides constantly remind us of how to behave in the Middle East and so we know the issues and so act accordingly. And are careful. But DrRons story has made a big difference to how we might do things in Japan. Or least be more aware.

Off topic. We were on a cruise that touched into Saudi Arabia just last year. An American woman who we knew to be very demanding, went up to the Saudi Tour guide, dressed in their appropriate clothing, and touched him deliberately on his head to feel his headwear. I swear I gasped out loud at her complete rudeness. And well outrageous behaviour as we'd all been cautioned before getting off the ship. He did ignore it but he must have been seething inside.

Yes this is what I was trying to say. People think of Japan as Hello Kitty and completely forget about the he ugly side of their culture last expressed in the 40s. My late grandfather who was a WWII vet had a saying of how he compared the Germans against the Japanese, which I won’t repeat as it would most likely be against AFF ToS.

People are at least aware of the brutality of the Middle East but continue to travel there, hoping it doesn’t happen to them.

 

[Quickstatus]

we know the issues and so act accordingly.

While @drron might not have concluded this trip report and it may be a little premature to ask, but I'll ask:

How should the next person act?

 

[justinbrett]

No, this has nothing to do with wartime Japan

No that’s where you’re wrong. A culture doesn’t change that quickly.