The demise of the flying kangaroo?

[Dick Savage]

Onepoppa: .... and the (stews) never understood the fine line whih separated informality from flippancy ....

Can't remember if they were still doing it when (while spending about $300K a year on international travel -- and 30 years before the Bingle boorishness) I quit using Qantas -- but the company went through a period during which just before you turned left into First Class a flippantly informal jerk greeted you at the door with "G'Day Mate."

Qantas' great big problem was and is that for far too long it was a mobbed-up-unionized extension of the public service, able to count on Scores of likely Hundreds of Millions of Taxpayer Dollars for First-Class flying consular clerks, ASIO apparatchiks and Commonwealth coppers about the place and letting itself be looted by the likes of the standover and shakedown thugs that held the company's in-the-end never really completed Sydney headquarters hostage and to ransom for from memory thirteen years during which time, just down the road and in 18 months from first sod to opening, Singapore's Ang family built the Regent Hotel - for years the world's best.

With much respect for the very many fine men and women who've worked there through the years -- and especially not forgetting the many pilots I've shared other companies' coughpits with here and there during our careers -- and who have done their best to make it better -- the much-vaunted red rat is more reminiscent of the "Australian" car brand - also a Labor Party looter and launderer - than of an actual airline.

 

[Dick Savage]

Thank you.

 

[Dee Thom]

Yes, but they have PE on the routes to support long haul flights - primarily Australia to Europe and Australia(PER) to USA. QF has PE product to UK and US too. A side benefit for CX is that they can sell left over PE seats to those terminating in HKG as well (like QF do between DXB & LHR). QF do not connect to anywhere "long haul" from their A330s (apart from to codeshares) and therefore they are only selling to the medium haul market, mostly 7-9 hr routes. I question if demand is enough for PE on these length routes, most people seem to able to survive 7-9 hrs in Y, it's the 22 hrs that's more difficult in Y.

have just completed a SYD/NRT/SYD flight on JAL in premium economy, and was very impressed with the product, cabin crew, food, and seats. All P.E. Passengers were invited to the QF or Sakua Lounges prior to departure, and the cabin was a sell-out. On the return I was offered an upgrade to J, due to a full house in P.E., and the Pax getting off in SYD we're not onward bound.



It seems people are willing to pay 2-3x Y fares for PE to go to Europe, but would enough be willing to pay the same multiple just for a relatively short hop to Asia (say $1500-2200) to make PE profitable?

Price on JAL was $2000 return, which for my body, was well worth the price.

 

[harvyk]

What starts to worry me is that reading this and other threads, I don't see anyone fighting hard for the Qantas name. There does not seem to be anyone who is pushing back on anybody's comments correcting us in the "error of our ways" in criticizing/commenting on our national carrier. Is it that we recently have Holden drop out and finally admit, under country pride, it is GM a US company and we are prepared for anything including loss of national identity?

What's there to fight about? I still love flying QF, and will probably keep flying them as my airline of choice until one of us dies. But nothing which has been posted in here is untrue. They have cut back on service, they have cut back on FF perks, the reality is that AJ is either intentionally (as some conspiracy theorists think), or through incompetents running the airline into the ground. Whilst I am more than happy to question someone when they make statements, the reality is that good service is so subjective, pretty much anything people post here will be correct from their own point of view...

 

[dadevo]

as someone who has been on a qantas plane every week for the last 10 years (as a passenger) i think the service has improved significantly rather than have gone backwards and i am amazed at the critisism they cop on this and other sites and in the media! i have also flown on most other major carriers over the time in everything from economy to first and i think the qantas offering is as good as the alternatives!
i think the emirates tie up will be a long term mistake as they push people onto their planes BUT it ay take a while to see the finanical implications .... hopefully they did the numbers properly before they went into it!
the qantas lounges are also comparable all over the world .... i was in the new HK lounge on the weekend and it is amazing .... all we now need is for the new LAX lounge to open in the next couple of months!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

as someone who has been on a qantas plane every week for the last 10 years (as a passenger) i think the service has improved significantly rather than have gone backwards and i am amazed at the critisism they cop on this and other sites and in the media! i have also flown on most other major carriers over the time in everything from economy to first and i think the qantas offering is as good as the alternatives!
i think the emirates tie up will be a long term mistake as they push people onto their planes BUT it ay take a while to see the finanical implications .... hopefully they did the numbers properly before they went into it!
the qantas lounges are also comparable all over the world .... i was in the new HK lounge on the weekend and it is amazing .... all we now need is for the new LAX lounge to open in the next couple of months!

welcome to AFF!

don't get me wrong... when QF is good they can be fantastic! There is no doubt about that.

but the inconsistency is the problem.

some (and I mean some) QF crews are downright unpleasant. It's that inconsistency that means it's not worth the risk when you can get a better alternative.

 

[harvyk]

<snip>
some (and I mean some) QF crews are downright unpleasant. It's that inconsistency that means it's not worth the risk when you can get a better alternative.

Shorthaul / Dom (aka golden triangle), I would agree 100% with you there they are certainly consistently inconsistent, and there are certainly some who should be shown the door. But on the longer / international sectors I've only ever come across good crews, with many individuals going above and beyond IMHO.

Then again I could almost understand how this would work, since flying nothing but golden triangle routes all day would be pretty soul crushing, but yet flying off to some exotic destination on a weekly basis would certainly put you in a good mood...

 

[dadevo]

i am sure inconsistent crew attitudes are a problem for all airlines ... and most businesses! While it can certainly be frustrating i am not sure qantas is any worse than some other airlines .... and they all need to put up with the attitude of the travelling public which must be a huge challenge at times .... for all airlines!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Shorthaul / Dom (aka golden triangle), I would agree 100% with you there they are certainly consistently inconsistent, and there are certainly some who should be shown the door. But on the longer / international sectors I've only ever come across good crews, with many individuals going above and beyond IMHO.

Then again I could almost understand how this would work, since flying nothing but golden triangle routes all day would be pretty soul crushing, but yet flying off to some exotic destination on a weekly basis would certainly put you in a good mood...

i am sure inconsistent crew attitudes are a problem for all airlines ... and most businesses! While it can certainly be frustrating i am not sure qantas is any worse than some other airlines .... and they all need to put up with the attitude of the travelling public which must be a huge challenge at times .... for all airlines!

I'm talking long haul first class. Out of the four QF long-hauls I do a year, roughly half seem to be having 'bad days'. And it only needs to take one crew member with attitude to spoil it. I don't get that degree of inconsistency on any other airline (except United maybe... but then I go there with very low expectations ).

the difference is simple... on other airlines I know I'm going to have a good flight, on Qantas I hope I have a good flight.

 

[leadman]

I was worried that I was a bit harsh too start with, but the weekend confirmed my thoughts on Qantas. Having to do a family emergency on Good Friday Qantas were really good getting me from MEL > SYD. But coming back I booked via the web and could only get a late flight as nothing else showed up. Travelling from the other side of the Blue Mts, I got there 4 hours early. I was advised that with the instructions from HO, that flight rules and tickets had to be now enforced and I could not be put on an earlier flight, although there were seats. So with four hours in the lounge a number of staff indicated that its the "new Qantas". I know under rules, tickets etc, etc, they are right so no argument from me (and I did not argue, just enjoyed a few ales), but what differentiates the great airlines is things like compassion, understanding and communication (I'm still waiting for a reply promised two months ago!). The opposite happened recently with Asiana business; I got to the airport and my ticket was for the day before! My absolute stuff-up and they could have called it a no-show, but the exact opposite, rushed through customs and not a word mentioned, although I did feel stupid. I know which airline sticks in my mind for customer service!!!!

 

[mannej]

Comparing a business ticket to a non-flexible economy ticket is a bit like apples and oranges isn't it not?

 

[harvyk]

<snip> I was advised that with the instructions from HO, that flight rules and tickets had to be now enforced and I could not be put on an earlier flight, although there were seats. <snip>

Sorry, how is QF deciding to actually enforce flight rules as described in the contract of sale considered proof that the airline is going down hill?

 

[leadman]

Yes you are right, no argument. I think its more of the change that is occurring, although CX and TG regularly help on the short Y tickets.

 

[Awesom Andy]

I know of someone who made a mistake with his booking, with his return date on the ticket a month after what it's supposed to be. It was a deep discount Y ticket, and he has no status. SQ fixed it for him free of charge, and off he goes to the flight.

 

[Dick Savage]

Sorry, how is QF deciding to actually enforce flight rules as described in the contract of sale considered proof that the airline is going down hill?

In precisely the way the fact you had to ask -- and a glance at any of its check-in lines -- is proof that its "going down hill" is not confined to the often effective pig-headed thuggery of Qantas' (far too frequently "quota") - hired help.

 

[leadman]

Sorry, how is QF deciding to actually enforce flight rules as described in the contract of sale considered proof that the airline is going down hill?

Its all about customer service! Why do a lot of people cough about Jetstar? most of boils down to customer service and the difference between them and Qantas. Change the service to the customer you change the perception fairly quickly, just look at some of the threads particularly "heads up about changes".

Its not proof, but a perception, just like Customer Service!

 

[harvyk]

In precisely the way the fact you had to ask -- and a glance at any of its check-in lines -- is proof that its "going down hill" is not confined to the often effective pig-headed thuggery of Qantas' (far too frequently "quota") - hired help.

You know, if you are editing a persons quote beyond a simply deletion of non-relevant parts (and even then a <snip> is commonly used it indicate that an edit may have happened) it's polite to highlight what you've added into the other persons quote so that others can see what the quoted person did and did not say...

Back on topic, qantas made up it's conditions of carriage with what ever terms they felt they needed. To get upset at them for actually enforcing a contract which you yourself have agreed to be bound by seems a little strange.

No doubt you hold qantas to any terms and / or conditions in the contract which are of benefit to you and would complain bitterly if they didn't honour their side of the agreement?

 

[harvyk]

Its all about customer service! Why do a lot of people cough about Jetstar? most of boils down to customer service and the difference between them and Qantas. Change the service to the customer you change the perception fairly quickly, just look at some of the threads particularly "heads up about changes".

Its not proof, but a perception, just like Customer Service!

Not really, whilst QF can certain take some leeway in how strongly they enforce their rules, ultimately in my mind, enforcing a pre-agreed upon set of rules does not indicate that the company is in decline. There could be a whole range of factors behind enforcement of the rules, including not wanting to create a precedent, to bean counters getting more power over customer relations.

 

[drron]

The problem is they had already created numerous precedents.They have in the past often moved elites to earlier flights.So if they are no longer going to do that they should have sent an email telling their elites that the rules are going to be enforced.
No good when someone who has had that benefit in the past is denied at checkin or lounge.It creates ill will.not a good thing for the business.
Even I when an NBQP have been offered earlier flights at checkin when on discount Y fares.

 

[harvyk]

The problem is they had already created numerous precedents.They have in the past often moved elites to earlier flights.So if they are no longer going to do that they should have sent an email telling their elites that the rules are going to be enforced.
No good when someone who has had that benefit in the past is denied at checkin or lounge.It creates ill will.not a good thing for the business.
Even I when an NBQP have been offered earlier flights at checkin when on discount Y fares.

I've been offered earlier flights as well as an NBQP, the point is however that in a way they have already told you that they will not do that as a matter of course via the conditions of carriage. Whilst yes, a quick email might be nice, what would they say?

Hi harvyk,

Look we know that you have enjoyed our "Just get me home" experience, however we need to enhance this experience to conform with your conditions of carriage which state we'll leave you at the airport until your scheduled flight is ready to go.

To be honest, I've always considered been bumped onto an earlier flight as something which QF only does when it benefits them, not you regardless of status (well can't speak for CL). For example they would do so if all their flights are virtually full (and thus there is a chance they would be able to sell your original seat and still depart with a full plane), or if there was the potential for bad weather.

I still remember one time where both myself (as a PS) and a SG went to the service desk, I was able to get an earlier flight, the SG was not. It all had to do with the fact that CBR flights where heavily loaded that night, and as such they where likely to be able to onsell my original seat at the last minute, in the SG's case, the flights to MEL where lightly loaded and as such there was no advantage to QF for moving him.

Of course if you really want the ability to move flights, there is always the flexi ticket.