The pointless pathetic penny pinching that pushes away customers thread

[medhead]

Regarding the OP's point of requesting to be advanced to an earlier flight on a 'cheap & inflexible' ticket, there are a few sides of this to consider.

Firstly, QF price tickets according to their inclusions (no surprise to most here) ie. seat, leg room, meal and *flexibility*, even the number of SCs and points earned. The theory is that if you want to be *guaranteed* these inclusions then fork out for the higher price ticket.

However, as the OP points out, QF could win loyalty by instructing staff to exercise discretion over these micro decisions - and for status flyers this more flexibility should be a factor. Sure, the discounted sale Red e-deal saver fare has TnC's up the kazoo disallowing this and that, but what is the harm letting our OP take the earlier flight?

Well, if he had been advanced to the earlier flight our AFF member would not be seething here on the forum nor plotting ways to make sure next time he flys his first destination will *not* be Qantas.com. But perhaps the QF logic (I think flawed) is that in theory our OP would instead blame his decision to book a cheap fare for his predicament and vow that 'in future' he will book the fully flexible fare bucket resulting in a bonanza of extra revenue on that and future tickets. But as we can see, this is not how things panned out.

Another factor is to consider is that the flight OP wanted to take will probably leave with the seat empty anyway, particularly if the flight is imminent. The seat that would now have been left empty on the later flight if OP was advanced comes into play. Our friend Johnny Come Lately business traveller with a company credit card who would dearly love to buy "any seat you have" on the aircraft, "I don't care how much it costs, I HAVE to be there for my very important meeting". But, what a shame, our OP - lubricated from his extra time in the QP - is now neatly ensconced in his uber cheap seat.... oh well, perhaps Johnny goes over to VA.

Sure, it won't happen every time, but to my reckoning, advancing the loyal frequent flyer is just common business sense.

Yes, I did purchase non-flexible. Hands up my problem, I totally agree. I did try to make this about cost cutting for that reason. There are certainly other examples of cost cutting. (i know that you're not having a go. I also agree with the scenario that you've outlined.) I was also thinking about the service aspect of this situation. In particular that Virgin offer a better service at a lower cost. Even if Virgin remove fly ahead, they will still have the same service for cheaper. (anyway, I've said that...)

I was also really taken back by the attitude of the lounge person in denying the change. It was abrupt and just plan rude. I have been refused changes in many times in the past and the rejections were done in a 'nice' way. Certainly not in a 'no way, not ever, how dare you even ask me' way. I think the words were something like "no way, not ever on that fare", compared to previously having something like "Sorry that fare is not flexible we can't change today." Followed up with a smug pleasure at saying no. This was also a shock since I have always been moved when requesting since about May last year.

BTW my standard question is "I was hoping to check if there is anyway possible that I could get an earlier flight?"

You're right that they aren't going to often make money from that corporate card, but they will potentially keep getting me to book flights with them. Anyway, a couple of other things happened during my time in the lounge and I'm at the stage of booking no more QF flights in the short term, I have Platinum until Sept 2015, subject to the response from customer care.

Question: When did they start to allow it? I've been WP for about 6 years and have been knocked back, in the lounge, many times. So many times that I stopped bothering asking from about 3 years ago. I didn't know they allowed it!

Been doing weekly Sydney flights since Jan 2010. I have pretty much always been rejected in the Sydney QP, except really extreme weather, I think that was upto about August 2010. The J lounge has been a bit better but still limited to bad weather situations with a bit more leeway than the QP until about May 2013. Like you I'd given up asking for changes, but for some reason I really needed to get home early. So I did the full grovelling ask with full admission of not changeable. They didn't even blink an eyelid. I thought it was surprisingly easy. and then it turned out to be easy. Out of 72 flights in 2013, 9 were changed. Not sure how many were due to weather, but there was a real run of bad weather in SYD at one stage.

Yep, a couple of times as a WP I've asked for an earlier flight on a non flexible fare and been successful. Everyone's a winner...I am happy, QF fills an empty seat and opens another on a later flight etc etc.
My last request was met with a "what are you thinking?" stare.

It's ok, and I entirely understand your point

Attitude was the shock. There was actually a follow up late were I caught the desk supervisor having a laugh and a gossip with new desk staff about the person who asked to change their flight to ADL but got told no. Even if there was someone else who asked to change flights to ADL it is extremely poor form to gossip about customers in front of other customers.

 

[roncritch]

Don't forget the hot towels! Cannot understand this. No hot towels in J today KTA-PER but at least towels in the bathroom
Good hot breakfast as well today

 

[JohnK]

Question: When did they start to allow it? I've been WP for about 6 years and have been knocked back, in the lounge, many times. So many times that I stopped bothering asking from about 3 years ago. I didn't know they allowed it!

It has been allowed on and off the past 6 years for me.

There have been times when it hasn't been possible but thems the breaks. Take note I turn up to the airport ~1 hour before flight and in reality in SYD on a Sunday I would have missed the previous flight and in BNE on a Friday it is a mess and even an earlier flight is a lottery so most times I stay put.

Last week in BNE I asked for boarding pass in business lounge and I was asked if I wanted seat on earlier flight. I wasn't interested but it was offered.

 

[tuapekastar]

I've managed to 'fly ahead' on the cheapest nastiest fare there is, but every time from SYD, and every time in the evening, when it is to QF's benefit to get pax on their way ASAP, in case anything untoward happens that may keep pax there past curfew and incur significant costs for QF with accommodation and the like.

Yes VA does formally offer it, and I have used it once with them, and they 'bent' the rules in that there was no fly ahead inventory available in the same or lesser fare bucket that I had booked in.

As a general thing I do have an issue with penny-pinching (it is so petty and negative), but understand that airlines have policies and generally stick to them (said as a grateful recipient of some non-policy love).

 

[Sdtravel]

Was on a flight from BNE to SYD earlier this month. Came back with 2 suitcases.
It was a economy ticket so i know you are only allowed one. BUt as QC member im allowed an 32kg rather than normal 23k.
Both bags combined weighed 29kg. So i thought hey im within my allowance its got to be ok.
Got to checkin. The guy goes sorry one bag $40. IM like they are combined under my allowance (which is amazing since you got to figure a suitcase is still 5-6k empty). The guy still was "one bag".
Go to the sales desk and pay $40. You will get your baggage receipt and boarding pass once you pay. It was only $40 so i paid it but wasnt happy.

OK so i know the rule and that they moved to a piece system on domestic. But i thought there would be bit of leniency given im a QC and it was under my allowed weight.


Also had a flight from HNL to SYD early last year. the bag was about 29K i think. They checkin lady was like you will need to pay for the overwieght. I was like. Its a US fligh and im a QC so im allowed 3 bags and i only have 1. Why do i need to pay? She was its too heavy. I was like im travelling with 4 people and and we only have 4 bags when we could have 9.
Anyway ended up repacking the bag to move 3kg from one bag to another. So petty (annoyed also that there was no QC person. the desk was empty, but thats a story for another day)

I know Qantas needs to make money but a bit of nice customer service and people will want to fly more, show them you wil go the extra mile for them and they will stay loyal. the more bad experiences i have the less i wil want to renew my QC and fly with you. My brother is WP with virgin and they let him do all sorts of things eg change flights on a discounted ticket, checkin luggage without paying. ( i know likely because he is WP). Virgin even have a direct street to lounge entrance in SYD so you dont have to do through the terminal.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

I am happy to follow the fare rules and baggage rules to the letter. But it is the silly things like removing papers, hot towels, soon to be Baileys, reducing lunch services to a salad in domestic business etc etc that I really consider penny pinching and damaging.

 

[cove]

Over the last 5 years business has become harder for everyone so Qantas is no exception. The issue is whether a company can economise without the customer being aware of the cost cutting. Cutting $2 billion out of the Qantas group running costs is a very big number and we know that the airport owners have been gouging them purely because they can.
Qantas has been held up with the deliveries of aircraft so the refurbing of the 767 fleet became necessary. Fuel is a killer on them but the depreciation and or leasing cost is very little as they will go off to the graveyard in the next three or so years.
With the idea on changing to an earlier flight it should be a no brainer to fill an empty seat earlier in the day just in case it gets busier later in the day.
I don't have any real issues with what is going on and my recent flights have been very good. I would have preferred not getting moved from my selected seat but that happened to allow a family to sit together.
i was put into the first row which is my least favourite row but I did get to chat with a WP1 seeing all of the J cabin was chockers. No Platinum shadows on Wednesday but who really cares?
The flight was a bit bumpy due to the weather but I felt I was in good,safe hands with the flight announcements coming from the flight deck.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

"I want the benefits of a flexible ticket without paying for it"
"I want anytime access/additional guests even though it's not a status benefit"
"I want a points upgrade rather than paying for the class I want"

I completely understand the goodwill Qantas can earn by showing some flexibility, but it shouldn't become an entitlement culture rather than something people are grateful for as going over and above. What happens when people stop bothering with flexible tickets because they know they'll get moved, or they start flying DJ with a few drinks to start within the QP, or they book Y on flights they know are going to be empty up front and hence guaranteed an upgrade?

+1

It would be great if QF showed some flexibility sometimes. And the attitude of some staff could be improved (though I don't think that's germane to the cost-cutting issue).

However complaining about not getting something you're not entitled to in the first place does seem a bit much to me.

 

[medhead]

"I want the benefits of a flexible ticket without paying for it"
"I want anytime access/additional guests even though it's not a status benefit"
"I want a points upgrade rather than paying for the class I want"

I completely understand the goodwill Qantas can earn by showing some flexibility, but it shouldn't become an entitlement culture rather than something people are grateful for as going over and above. What happens when people stop bothering with flexible tickets because they know they'll get moved, or they start flying DJ with a few drinks to start within the QP, or they book Y on flights they know are going to be empty up front and hence guaranteed an upgrade?

+1

It would be great if QF showed some flexibility sometimes. And the attitude of some staff could be improved (though I don't think that's germane to the cost-cutting issue).

However complaining about not getting something you're not entitled to in the first place does seem a bit much to me.

I think you've got caught on the unimaginative point about the rules. Beyond the rules is the idea of competition. Qantas is now in a competitive environment, I'm not sure they're going to help their position by being equal or worse than the competition and more expensive. Certainly, you've both raised a very important point about entitlement as well as the need for some flexibility. However, the qantas staff clearly communicated to me that they have been instructed to never move non-flexible fares. Never! No flexibility at all. This is a change from the past situation, there is no more flexibility.

Then there is the staff rudeness. Other staff can and have refused a change in a completely non-rude way, that I have accepted entirely without question. If staff are unable to communicate blanket removal of flexibility in the name of cost cutting without a rude and smug attitude then customer acceptance is going to be hard to gain. As per the thread title, the attitude and manner of the staff in enforcing the new rules is what is pushing me away.

But I also think there are a whole range of changes that seem to be outright penny pinching that I believe will push customers away, or even worse point to the demise of Qantas altogether.

 

[Cossie]

I had a similar issue on my status run to Townsville last Sunday, asked in Canberra, then Brisbane and finally Townsville to see if I could avoid spending 3 1/2 hours in the lounge by getting an earlier flight back to Brisbane. All said " computer says 'no' ". So I was entertained by the cricket and caught up with some reading.

When I checked into Brisbane airport the next afternoon to fly to Sydney, I was offered an earlier flight....... So why not out of Townsville?

 

[yohy?!]

+1

It would be great if QF showed some flexibility sometimes. And the attitude of some staff could be improved (though I don't think that's germane to the cost-cutting issue).

However complaining about not getting something you're not entitled to in the first place does seem a bit much to me.

Not sure I've seen any mention on this thread of things being expected that were never offered previously....consistency is key, whether or not something is in the fine print is irrelevant if it has been offered in the past

 

[VHOEJ]

"I want the benefits of a flexible ticket without paying for it"
"I want anytime access/additional guests even though it's not a status benefit"
"I want a points upgrade rather than paying for the class I want"

I completely understand the goodwill Qantas can earn by showing some flexibility, but it shouldn't become an entitlement culture rather than something people are grateful for as going over and above. What happens when people stop bothering with flexible tickets because they know they'll get moved, or they start flying DJ with a few drinks to start within the QP, or they book Y on flights they know are going to be empty up front and hence guaranteed an upgrade?

Bingo. It makes a mockery of the whole system and only results in people buying the cheapest fares. When you pay for a higher fare, one of the key benefits is flexibility - if you allow everyone to go by the same rules, you might as well have the one rule for everyone (like JQ).

And it sets a precedence - the orginal poster might say this is a one off but if QF agreed, if the same thing happened again, you would expect the same outcome. Once it gets done once, 99% of people forget that it was a goodwill gesture and expect it everytime. I actually feel sorry for the staff in this regard - they are in a no win situation.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

I think you've got caught on the unimaginative point about the rules. Beyond the rules is the idea of competition. Qantas is now in a competitive environment, I'm not sure they're going to help their position by being equal or worse than the competition and more expensive.

Coles and Woolies are in a competitive situation too. But neither Coles nor Woolies is going to go down the drain because they have one product, one day, that is somewhat more expensive than the competition. Nor do they extend any special privileges to people who spend $10k/year with them. Nor do they provide particularly pleasant customer service.

Arguing that any of these things (e.g. flexibility to pax) should be extended to you is completely meaningless (as I can easily provide the above counter-example) unless you can show how it benefits the airline. And frankly, I've never seen anyone put together a model to show how it does.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think I'd have to agree with Falcs on this one (oh, and welcome to AFF BTW ). Even then, it would be great if the airline could make certain exceptions, and everyone knew it was an exception . For instance, the person processing the request has to 'phone upstairs' for OK, or some other flagging that its not at the simple discretion of the person processing the request. The 'phone upstairs' would be a good way for the airline to routinely allow a 'fly earlier' request to proceed, as it is, as I think medhead said, in everyone's interest for it to happen. The response might be "for operational reasons, we are allowing this today / on that flight'

I rarely buy non-flexible tickets, unless I have at least 1/2 a day leeway, for just the reason in the OP. Plans change, delays happen & free time opens up and I want to be able to 'effortlessly' change my flights. I'd be a bit peeved if I found out that the airline was regularly allowing this for people who hadn't paid for the 'privilege' .

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Not sure I've seen any mention on this thread of things being expected that were never offered previously....consistency is key, whether or not something is in the fine print is irrelevant if it has been offered in the past

'

If QF gave you an upgrade once, then they should upgrade you in future - just for the sake of consistency?

If QF gave you something previously, that you weren't entitled to, then they did you a favour. Maybe they had to do it anyway, or maybe someone was just being nice. You're not entitled to it (otherwise it'd be in the contract between you and QANTAS), and you're certainly not entitled to it because of some unsupported assertion that "consistency is key". Heck, if consistency is so important to you, you should be championing the move to ensure that everything is done "by the book" - no leeway means no one gets treated differently to anyone else with the same ticket/status/whatever.

 

[yohy?!]

'

If QF gave you an upgrade once, then they should upgrade you in future - just for the sake of consistency?

If QF gave you something previously, that you weren't entitled to, then they did you a favour. Maybe they had to do it anyway, or maybe someone was just being nice. You're not entitled to it (otherwise it'd be in the contract between you and QANTAS), and you're certainly not entitled to it because of some unsupported assertion that "consistency is key". Heck, if consistency is so important to you, you should be championing the move to ensure that everything is done "by the book" - no leeway means no one gets treated differently to anyone else with the same ticket/status/whatever.

Consistency in the product offering and experience not the application of fine print, it all comes down to what is reasonable for one to expect when choosing Qantas

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Consistency in the product offering and experience not the application of fine print, it all comes down to what is reasonable for one to expect when choosing Qantas

I think it's entirely reasonable to expect what's in the T&C - in fact you can insist on them. Anything else is a bonus - and complaining that you're not able to change flights when you've bought a ticket that explicitly states that it's not changeable is ridiculous. There are good business reasons for QF to not allow changes - it would make the more expensive flexible fares redundant.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Nor do they provide particularly pleasant customer service..

Not sure I agree with this point - after Wesfarmers bought Coles one of their big pushes to increase profitability was to enhance customer service. The difference was amazing and has continued. Same with David Jones - apart from creating an omni-channel for shopping they created a much better customer service experience. I've always loved shopping at DJs but in the couple of years before they revamped their service, I actually walked out of there on a number of occasions because service was unpleasant. Since their profit problems and service enhancement it is back to being a pleasure to shop in. I believe pleasant customer service costs nothing and will go a long way to retaining customers. I don't disagree with you that people should get what they paid for and not expect constant special treatment. However a"no" done pleasantly and courteously does not offend
or alienate.....

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Hi,
Oh, I don't think being courteous costs. That said, if you asked for a special deal at Coles ("could I have a few extra of these for free?" or "can I buy premium brand x but only pay for home brand y prices", I'm pretty sure you'd just get a "no" I guess a lot of QF staff continually get asked to do things, and they just get sick of it after a while.

 

[medhead]

Bingo. It makes a mockery of the whole system and only results in people buying the cheapest fares. When you pay for a higher fare, one of the key benefits is flexibility - if you allow everyone to go by the same rules, you might as well have the one rule for everyone (like JQ).

And it sets a precedence - the orginal poster might say this is a one off but if QF agreed, if the same thing happened again, you would expect the same outcome. Once it gets done once, 99% of people forget that it was a goodwill gesture and expect it everytime. I actually feel sorry for the staff in this regard - they are in a no win situation.

The problem that you're missing is I'm not talking about this for all passenger, but as a status level benefit. This benefit is offered by the competition and it has been offered in the past in the same situation.

I certainly do not feel sorry for the staff. They were outright F'ing rude to me and I caught them later having good laugh at the "person flying to Adl who wanted to change flights". They sure as hell can win by not being rude and smug. Other staff have certainly refused a change for me in a very different manner without destroying any of my goodwill towards the airline. But then I already written all this up thread. I guess you're not interested in read that....

Coles and Woolies are in a competitive situation too. But neither Coles nor Woolies is going to go down the drain because they have one product, one day, that is somewhat more expensive than the competition. Nor do they extend any special privileges to people who spend $10k/year with them. Nor do they provide particularly pleasant customer service.

Arguing that any of these things (e.g. flexibility to pax) should be extended to you is completely meaningless (as I can easily provide the above counter-example) unless you can show how it benefits the airline. And frankly, I've never seen anyone put together a model to show how it does.

Coles and Woolies do not really have a Frequent Shopper program to measure that I've spent $10k/year. EDR/flybuys does that to some extent and I certainly get selected offers and special privileges because via those programs. I also have an excellent customer experience with the staff in my local supermarket. Staff excellence at play.

As for how or why these benefits should be extended to me. Well firstly I guess you're missing the bit that such benefits will apparently no longer be extended to anyone, that is what I'm reporting here the big picture, not just my situation. But the reason of extending such flexibility is due all the flights that I purchase with Qantas each year - It's called status with the frequent flyer program. Another reason is to keep me handcuffed to Qantas and to not spend my money elsewhere - you know the golden loyalty handcuffs. It benefits the airline because it helps me decide to fly with them every week and pay 30% more for the privilege. Filling seats every week of the year certainly does benefit the airline.

I think it's entirely reasonable to expect what's in the T&C - in fact you can insist on them. Anything else is a bonus - and complaining that you're not able to change flights when you've bought a ticket that explicitly states that it's not changeable is ridiculous. There are good business reasons for QF to not allow changes - it would make the more expensive flexible fares redundant.

See this is what I knew would happen, people who think I'm complaining about not changing my one particular flight. Thank you for your input, now if it's ok with you, I'd like to put aside one single experience and discuss the big picture of what these types of things say about Qantas' direction as an airline. After all that is what I've been talking about.

I know it'll be hard for some to put aside their personal digs at me and discuss the big picture. But the rules have been mentioned by you all. well done.