Travel Agent Booked Biz Class - turns out he used his points and took cash for himself

[Jack_OC]

We probably won't ever know. I was reading some comments about AFG on another website the other day and there were posters who seemed to think that $7700 return to Europe in J was a "good deal".

The thing is though, sometimes this might be a good deal - especially if you have no flexibility with dates/destinations. On occasion, I have (or more accurately my employer has) paid >$10k for flights to Europe or N America. In fact, our corporate travel agent recently found a (perfectly legitimate) "good deal" for an upcoming trip to the US, which comes in at ~$8k, but via a more circuitous route than I would have liked. It was indeed a good deal though, as the cheapest alternative option was closing in on $11k. I had booked flights to the same destinations just a few weeks earlier for less than $7k, going by the most direct route possible (with QF). It seems incredible that fares for similar flights can increase by as much as 60% depending on the dates you are going, but that is the case.

This is why I said above that someone could only know if they are paying the going rate (or conversely getting a discount) if they have searched online for the exact same itinerary on the same dates. I would guess that AFG et al adjust their "fares" relative to the real fares.

EDIT: just to avoid confusion, I’m not advocating for booking via AFG etc - I would never do that, as I think the risk is far too high, and in any case earning SCs is important to me.

 

[Mattg]

We probably won't ever know. I was reading some comments about AFG on another website the other day and there were posters who seemed to think that $7700 return to Europe in J was a "good deal".

I do wonder how AFG has managed to get so many positive reviews on their website. I can only assume that either they're removing negative reviews and/or customers are leaving reviews before they've actually taken the flights - meaning the airline hasn't had an opportunity to leave them stranded at the check-in counter yet.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I do wonder how AFG has managed to get so many positive reviews on their website. I can only assume that either they're removing negative reviews and/or customers are leaving reviews before they've actually taken the flights - meaning the airline hasn't had an opportunity to leave them stranded at the check-in counter yet.

As we saw above, someone who actually had their tickets cancelled went back! So obviously the AFG PR wheel is spinning well. Or the savings represent good value. AFG does have a flight guarantee, so that would soften the blow.

Whether it would be cheaper and easier to buy points yourself and book is the question. But many folk aren’t across how to do that. And AFG probably has a ready supply of points across multiple airlines

 

[mannej]

I do wonder how AFG has managed to get so many positive reviews on their website. I can only assume that either they're removing negative reviews and/or customers are leaving reviews before they've actually taken the flights - meaning the airline hasn't had an opportunity to leave them stranded at the check-in counter yet.

Or AFG are leaving positive reviews themselves

 

[JessicaTam]

As we saw above, someone who actually had their tickets cancelled went back!

That left me scratching my head.

 

[TomVexille]

The thing is though, sometimes this might be a good deal - especially if you have no flexibility with dates/destinations. On occasion, I have (or more accurately my employer has) paid >$10k for flights to Europe or N America. In fact, our corporate travel agent recently found a (perfectly legitimate) "good deal" for an upcoming trip to the US, which comes in at ~$8k, but via a more circuitous route than I would have liked. It was indeed a good deal though, as the cheapest alternative option was closing in on $11k. I had booked flights to the same destinations just a few weeks earlier for less than $7k, going by the most direct route possible (with QF). It seems incredible that fares for similar flights can increase by as much as 60% depending on the dates you are going, but that is the case.

This is why I said above that someone could only know if they are paying the going rate (or conversely getting a discount) if they have searched online for the exact same itinerary on the same dates. I would guess that AFG et al adjust their "fares" relative to the real fares.

EDIT: just to avoid confusion, I’m not advocating for booking via AFG etc - I would never do that, as I think the risk is far too high, and in any case earning SCs is important to me.

You're not wrong. Key word there is "sometimes". And I cant imagine that AFG gives you great flexibility.

 

[theblank]

For QF it is prohibited to sell points-

Thats true, but the TA hasnt committed consumer fraud by doing so. Consumer asked to buy a ticket, was supplied one, and used it.

 

[Happy Dude]

WRT the Ozbargain guy, I wonder how he manages to find availability at non-any seat prices. Paying anything more than standard or saver award rates would cripple his biz model. His customers must also be super-flexible.

I'm also wondering what is the big deal about issuing reward tix in other names and how that is a breach of T&C's. I get that you shouldn't transfer them to a "strangers" account, a la the Ozbargain guy. But I get reward tix for my in-laws all the time. Are there any restrictions as to whom I can give a reward ticket?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

WRT the Ozbargain guy, I wonder how he manages to find availability at non-any seat prices. Paying anything more than standard or saver award rates would cripple his biz model. His customers must also be super-flexible.

I'm also wondering what is the big deal about issuing reward tix in other names and how that is a breach of T&C's. I get that you shouldn't transfer them to a "strangers" account, a la the Ozbargain guy. But I get reward tix for my in-laws all the time. Are there any restrictions as to whom I can give a reward ticket?

The restrictions depend on the airline program. Some like qantas have a list of eligible people (which doesn’t include friends). Singapore airlines allows you to choose 6 people only. Other programs allow you to redeem for anyone. The latter is the most common.

But all programs have it in their terms and conditions that you cannot sell, buy or barter points. Some airlines have closed accounts where a member has redeemed for friends... the argument being that there is likely to be at least *some* consideration given for the ticket (unless you’re a very generous friend!)

 

[Happy Dude]

The restrictions depend on the airline program. Some like qantas have a list of eligible people (which doesn’t include friends). Singapore airlines allows you to choose 6 people only. Other programs allow you to redeem for anyone. The latter is the most common.

But all programs have it in their terms and conditions that you cannot sell, buy or barter points. Some airlines have closed accounts where a member has redeemed for friends... the argument being that there is likely to be at least *some* consideration given for the ticket (unless you’re a very generous friend!)

Ah ok gotcha. It pays to be generous towards the in-laws, at least in my world. Those redemptions are only ever on VA.

The Ozbargain guy must run a multitude of accounts across all the airlines I suppose. Surely the FFPs could catch him by posing as a customer and 'sell' him an unusual number of points and then trace the transaction.

 

[RoMambai]

The Ozbargain chap does indeed have an interest in a broad range of airline programs which enable him to spread risk but also increase the likelihood of getting tickets on the days he needs to get them. I understand a lot of his customers are overseas and from a particular ethno-religious cohort which gives him a latent pool of customers.

 

[ishin]

Please excuse my ignorance here, but given the number of "award" seats available to the so called "public" and the fact that "travel agents" appear to be snapping them up and reselling them reduce the number available to us who actually "save up" points to get awards??.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Please excuse my ignorance here, but given the number of "award" seats available to the so called "public" and the fact that "travel agents" appear to be snapping them up and reselling them reduce the number available to us who actually "save up" points to get awards??.

Travel agents 'snapping up' tickets to resell would be rare and unlikely to make much of a dent in the overall award pool. Travel agents have no ability to books seats over and above the regular public. It's first in and first served.

 

[ishin]

Travel agents 'snapping up' tickets to resell would be rare and unlikely to make much of a dent in the overall award pool. Travel agents have no ability to books seats over and above the regular public. It's first in and first served.

Thanks for the prompt reply...I wasn't actually referring to travel agents, but "travel agents" (or people who buy points from others with the intent of possibly consolidating and buying a ticket for a non-relative..if you get my drift?)....So the "award" suddenly becomes a commercial instrument......i.e sold for money to a third party....(you can tell I'm a newbie and not legally minded)...but I still think it sucks as it introduces more demand for a limited commodity.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks for the prompt reply...I wasn't actually referring to travel agents, but "travel agents" (or people who buy points from others with the intent of possibly consolidating and buying a ticket for a non-relative..if you get my drift?)....So the "award" suddenly becomes a commercial instrument......i.e sold for money to a third party....(you can tell I'm a newbie and not legally minded)...but I still think it sucks as it introduces more demand for a limited commodity.

Nah. I wouldn't be worried about it affecting the pool of seats.

If someone has 100,000 points they could either sell them to a points broker, or they could just as easily give/sell/exchange them to a friend or family member. Same award seat gets used, no increased detriment on anyone else looking for seats.

 

[Jack_OC]

Nah. I wouldn't be worried about it affecting the pool of seats.

If someone has 100,000 points they could either sell them to a points broker, or they could just as easily give/sell/exchange them to a friend or family member. Same award seat gets used, no increased detriment on anyone else looking for seats.

I agree that this is unlikely to have a huge impact on overall award availability, as I assume this practice is not that widespread, but I don't quite agree that points brokers cause no increased detriment on availability.

I suspect that most people never manage to accumulate enough points for international premium cabin awards, so by extension most points are probably redeemed for other types of awards (e.g. Y awards - in particular on domestic flights, gift cards, stuff from the FF stores). You are correct that these people could gift their points to a family member (but not barter or sell them, or transfer to a friend, at least in the case of QF), but I imagine most people do not routinely give their points away for free. As such, the practice of selling points probably does mean that more points are used for redemptions in premium cabins than would otherwise be the case.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I agree that this is unlikely to have a huge impact on overall award availability, as I assume this practice is not that widespread, but I don't quite agree that points brokers cause no increased detriment on availability.

I suspect that most people never manage to accumulate enough points for international premium cabin awards, so by extension most points are probably redeemed for other types of awards (e.g. Y awards - in particular on domestic flights, gift cards, stuff from the FF stores). You are correct that these people could gift their points to a family member (but not barter or sell them, or transfer to a friend, at least in the case of QF), but I imagine most people do not routinely give their points away for free. As such, the practice of selling points probably does mean that more points are used for redemptions in premium cabins than would otherwise be the case.

Agree if perhaps you had 100 people each with a 1000 points that would otherwise have gone to a gift card, I suppose a points broker could make 100 transactions, buy all the orphan miles, and sell them as a single package available for an award. But that's a lot of work, and a lot of transactions for a single seat.

To make it worthwhile I'm guessing someone might have 20, 30, 40, or 50k + they want to sell in a single transaction. Now points at that level could be used for family or friends just as easily as selling them to a broker.

Bartering/selling? I'd say it's not uncommon. Family member A might have points in velocity which they use to buy family member B an award on Singapore Airlines. Family member B returns the favour with a ticket on Qantas or Oneworld. Or Friend A has a stack of points on an airline and pays for the tickets while friend B buys the hotel at the destination and tickets to the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmmmm. Many would argue that our 'gaming' of the system is what is helping contribute to the lack of premium award space.

I'm not in any way arguing that what we do in legitimately churning cards equates to the arbitrage that this chap on ozbargain is exploiting, but we are hardly exemplars in this endeavour. A spade should be called a spade.

Yes, but it’s our own world of gaming. Not “preying “ on some unsophisticated individual who is unaware of the implications of their alternatives. Like buying points from a legitimate (relative) source.
There are as many opinions as there are opportunities here. So I guess we won’t see a consensus anytime soon.

 

[ishin]

Many thanks for the replies...I think that Jack3193 picked up the intent of the point I was trying to make.....Some people buy points with the specific intent of making a profit by reselling points or re-allocating (after booking) potential reward seats that wouldn't necessarily be taken by normal redemption's..and this in turn surely reduces availability to people who abide by the points rules....family transfers are (in my opinion) specifically allowed by the airlines to allow families (and potentially non-commercial friends) to redeem rewards (be they tickets or goods)..I basically consider it a gross misuse of points to allow brokering of points..unless allowed by airlines (..although how airlines detect and stamp it out is beyond me...but they obviously know the major players as they are quite public about their intent???).....trust I'm not out of line here.

 

[RoMambai]

I must say I find myself agreeing with MEL_traveller. I do not believe these shoddy dealers are manufacturing significant additional demand that would not be there otherwise. In fact, and if I can channel Milton Friedman, they are possibly making the system more 'efficient' by connecting buyers and sellers and leading to less waste. I know this may cut across the bows of those who want to monopolise the lions share of redemptions for themselves and thereby see the great unwashed with toasters but it is this exact outcome that seems to me to be more unfair than the actions of these shadowy brokers.