Travelling with children

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I'm with others... there is no reason to ban children from any cabin. Everyone understands if a child cries... but the frustrating part is when a parent seems oblivious to it and appears to do nothing to control the situation.

I was on a qantas domestic flight last year with a family and the 7-10 year old (somewhere in there) was telling the cabin about daddy's tail when he is in the bathroom. (her words, not mine)

the mother just laughed. I spat out my drink. It was up to another passenger (a business woman) to tell the girl that perhaps her language was not appropriate for an airplane.

Seems pretty harmless to me. I'd have laughed along with her, personally.

As for split cabins... why would a family want to split up on a flight anyway?

I would have thought that was pretty obvious - cost. 2x Business (or even 2x Premium economy) + 2x Economy is a LOT cheaper than 4x Business.

I don't have children, but since I like to travel this is a question I have contemplated myself a few times in case I ever do.

Since I'm tall and broad, economy seats are physically quite uncomfortable for me on long-haul flights, on top of which I usually like to do some work while I'm flying, and fitting a laptop in a usable fashion onto an economy table is all but impossible. So when we fly we are happy to spring for Prem Econ (with a DONE4 every few years). I really don't care at all about "cabin service" - heck, I'd be OK getting the economy meal - all I care about is a bigger seat and, particularly, more legroom.

Obviously these physical size issues in economy are not a problem for a child. So spending twice as much for Y+ (or four times as much for J) is a complete waste of money from that perspective. Putting the kid(s) down the back as unaccompanied minors is something I'm confident I'd be happy to do.

Fundamentally my argument would be this: If Unaccompanied Minors are OK in principle, then whether or not their parents are also on the plane is irrelevant.

(I do agree that children with parents in another cabin should be considered unaccompanied minors (with whatever conditions that might entail), however.)
 
Speaking with a mate whos a CSM in Y. Families who split themselves up and expect the cabin crew to babysit, aren't exactly going to make friends with *any* of the crew on board.
 
Finkelhor (1994) found that internationally, estimates vary from between seven percent and 36 percent for women, and three and 29 percent for men. A random sample of 2,869 18 to 24 year olds in the United Kingdom found that 11 percent reported having been sexually abused before the age of 13 years (Cawson et al. 2000). Price-Robertson, Bromfield and Vassallo’s (2010) summary of Australian prevalence studies estimates that four to eight percent of males and seven to 12 percent of females experience penetrative child sexual abuse and 12 to 16 percent of males and 23 to 36 percent of females experience non-penetrative child sexual abuse.

The first thing that jumps about the statistics you cite is that the estimated ranges are huge. That's always a sign that data are unreliable, and it makes it impossible to know where the true figure lies.

By the way, when I Googled Finkelhor, one of the first results that came up was a 2009 study that followed on from his work, which found the estimated ranges are even more ridiculously wide than those you cite: "Thirty-eight independent articles were identified, corresponding to 39 prevalence studies; these articles report the prevalence of childhood sexual abuse in 21 different countries, ranging from 0 to 53% for women and 0 to 60% for men". In other words, collectively, these studies suggest that the number of child sex abuse victims in the world is somewhere between zero and 4 billion. Very informative. This just serves to highlight my original point - there are no reliable data about unreported offences.

It might be tempting to assume the true prevalence is somewhere in the middle of that enormous range, but that's not a statistically valid approach. The reason is, it's clear that at least some of these studies were flawed (the estimates clearly can't all be accurate). It's very possible - likely even - that the same methodological flaws were repeated in a number of these studies, and when that happens you will tend to see a cluster of similarly flawed studies all yielding similar results. On the face of it, the fact that several independent studies found the same thing seems to validate the results, but of course that's just an illusion if they all got inaccurate results due to the same flawed methods. So, for example, it's possible that all of the studies that concluded the problem is very widespread are quite simply wrong. This means the true prevalence could be anywhere within the range of 0-60%.

Abel et al. (1987) give median figures of 1.3 female and 4.4 male non-incest victims per child sex offender who targets children outside of their family .

The median number of victims per offender does not allow you to draw the conclusion you are trying to draw. Consider a sample of 5 offenders, who had the following number of victims each:
-1
-2
-3
-500
-1000

The median number of victims per offender in that sample is 3. However, the total number of people attacked by those 5 people is 1,506 - that's an average (mean) of over 300 victims per offender. And this isn't just a silly hypothetical example - some high profile sex offenders are known to have abused many, many victims (especially those who held positions of authority over children, which is where most of the non-incest abuse seems to have occurred).

And guess what? I Googled Abel et al 1987, and according to that study, the mean number of male victims per offender was 281. This supports the contention that a very small number of people are responsible for the vast majority of sex crimes - which is the exact opposite of what you were trying to say.
 
Yes, some may yell at me! I have done it! albeit some years ago (last time was 6 years ago - both aged 11 years!) I wasn't charged unaccompanied minor and my kids/nieces and nephews are used to flying, so knew how to behave. Flight attendants happily came to get me if they asked for me which only happened once. Furthermore, years ago on several flights, I was separated from my kids in the seating process : they were happy! I wasn't too happy as I didn't think they had the best behaviour at that time in their lives to be away from me. On that flight, one of my kids was airsick : I felt bad (one and only time, she had caught giardia) but I was not the one who separated them! Once over 12 years? sometimes we separate and sometimes we don't - and the separation can even be in the same booking class at the request from my children : it is cool not to travel with Mum! My kids know not to bother anyone else, and usually the flight attendant is quite happy to pass on a message : as this has never really been an issue, I don't know how it would be if they were constantly sending messages. On one QF flight, I was feeling guilty, but the flight attendant in business class told me not to worry and to sit back and have some 'bubbles'! Oh yes, I am a bad mum!!! ha ha


Hi,

Is it acceptable (as per say EY or most top airlines) to have say two adults flying F and two kids (aged 7 and 10) flying in Y or J ?
Or does the entire family have to be seated together (in the same cabin) is the kids are <17 ?

Thanks
 
So, you don't think a 7yo will kick the seat in front? Wouldn't spill food or drink. Ever seen a 7yo and 10yo have a fight or shouting match in the back seat of a car? I've had one vomit in a plane. 14 hours is a long time unsupervised.

I had an adult once pummel the back of my seat for nearly the entire 11 hour flight! I complained to the person, who just turned away and completely ignored me! I complained to the fa's who said there was nothing they could do. It was a tortuous flight, and completely full, so I couldn't move! With a child, I would have just turned and glared and it probably would have stopped!! Instead I was subjected to a sullen and unresponsive adult!
 
I had an adult once pummel the back of my seat for nearly the entire 11 hour flight! I complained to the person, who just turned away and completely ignored me! I complained to the fa's who said there was nothing they could do. It was a tortuous flight, and completely full, so I couldn't move! With a child, I would have just turned and glared and it probably would have stopped!! Instead I was subjected to a sullen and unresponsive adult!

With an adult adopting that behaviour I seem to become very drowsy rather rapidly and need to recline my seat right back as far as it will go. I've even been known to move it upright/down again during meal service (so FA can pass the trays behind me). If FA asks I politely respond that the constant drumming on the rear of my seat had had a soporific impact on me. They then normally (2 times only needed to) smile and move on.

If an adjacent passenger needs to get out I move the seat upright etc. After a while (like training dogs) the drumming inexplicably ceases and the hushed conversations start. Roughly 45 minutes seems to be breaking point (especially if they're watching the IFE and it shakes from time to time).

Courtesy costs nothing, rudeness on the other hand can be ....
 
Interesting thread (and sub-thread!)

I have flown domestically and internationally as a family (4 of us) since the oldest was just a baby. I certainly have no desire to be split over the plane, and always try to organise the seat allocations well in advance to choose the right combination of seats. There have been a few occasions when upgrading to Y+ or J may have been possible for 1 or 2 seats, but it all got too hard trying to make it work with multiple PNRs (my seat through work). Leaving aside any risk or safety issues, I don't think it is fair to expect the crew or other passengers to effectively take on baby-sitting duties either. Even for older children (full-fare kicks in at 12!) some element of supervision/guidance seems to be in order.

Related to both elements of this thread, I flew back from LAX earlier this year sitting next to two kids about 7 and 10. Their parents and another child were sitting in the row in front, although there was almost no interaction between rows for the entire 14 hour flight. When the QF FAs came through the first time handing out water or paperwork, I got a very odd look from the FA when she asked a question about "my kids" and I told here they were not mine. She asked the kids where their parents were and there was some interaction with the parents in the previous row. If I had been asked to move, it suspect would have been rather awkward all round. Nothing further came of that; who knows if that was because the flight was full or the parents sitting in the previous row lowered the risk profile?

The kids were quiet and didn't cause any trouble. However, the element of babysitting still came in. The parents hardly interacted with the kids, so I helped sort out their meals, snacks, drinks, (and cleaning up after eating/spills with nowhere to put the tray full of rubbish), AVOD, broken headphones, access to the overhead locker, etc.
 
I have just booked my two youngest girls (9 and 11) to fly to the UK later in the year as UM in Y on QF. They will be staying with their grandparents for a few weeks. I will be in J on the flight over as I have a 6 day work trip and will fly back alone while they stay on.
For interest, QF regards kids in other cabins as UM, so my TA needed documentation to fill out appropriate paperwork.
I don't know how the practicalities will work out but will report back when we take the flight.
I have booked upgradeable fares for them and submitted point upgrade requests to J but expect that as both are PS they will be pretty far down the pecking order and will most likely travel in the cabin booked.
I will also be interested to see what if any lounge access we can get in DXB.
 
I have just booked my two youngest girls (9 and 11) to fly to the UK later in the year as UM in Y on QF. They will be staying with their grandparents for a few weeks. I will be in J on the flight over as I have a 6 day work trip and will fly back alone while they stay on.
For interest, QF regards kids in other cabins as UM, so my TA needed documentation to fill out appropriate paperwork.
I don't know how the practicalities will work out but will report back when we take the flight.
I have booked upgradeable fares for them and submitted point upgrade requests to J but expect that as both are PS they will be pretty far down the pecking order and will most likely travel in the cabin booked.
I will also be interested to see what if any lounge access we can get in DXB.

When I tied to book my 10 yo as an UM in Y ( while my wife and I were in F) for QF1 next week, Qantas told me over the phone this may not be possible. They only permitted me to go ahead with booking when I explained older siblings would be with my daughter. The older siblings were on another booking but sitting next to the 10 year old.
The information conveyed over the phone may have been wrong, but I did not investigate as it wasn't relevant to us.
 
Without wanting to scare children travelling as UMs - it might be worth making it clear that in the unlikely event of an emergency, the children should follow crew instructions and leave the aircraft as soon as possible and not wait, worry, or come looking for their parents.

The most worrying aspect of split family groups is the parent wanting to make sure their children are ok and potentially impeding the safety of everyone else. (or indeed a child refusing to leave the aircraft because they are concerned about their parents.)
 
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