United Airlines Denied Boarding

[TiredOldFlyer]

A bit of misunderstanding.

We departed LAX same day - albeit some 4 hours late to an alternative destination, Grand Junction, and then by bus to Aspen.

The alternate flight to Aspen the following day was never mentioned.

When queried about the return leg from Aspen I was advised "maybe we can get you on a flight from Aspen at 4.00 pm". This is when I decided to go to Denver and ticket on from there.

I must say I was surprised at Uniteds prompt reply to my "complaint" I expected to wait weeks.

I have now emailed, politely, Mr. ********, the CEO of united asking him would he mind looking into this problem for me.

 

[eastwest101]

A bit of misunderstanding.

We departed LAX same day - albeit some 4 hours late to an alternative destination, Grand Junction, and then by bus to Aspen.

The alternate flight to Aspen the following day was never mentioned.

When queried about the return leg from Aspen I was advised "maybe we can get you on a flight from Aspen at 4.00 pm". This is when I decided to go to Denver and ticket on from there.

I must say I was surprised at Uniteds prompt reply to my "complaint" I expected to wait weeks.

I have now emailed, politely, Mr. ********, the CEO of united asking him would he mind looking into this problem for me.

The way I read the reply that from UA - it implied your flight LAX-Aspen was scheduled on the 28th Jan and you flew on the 29th Jan from LAX-Grand Junction and then got the bus from Grand Junction to Aspen. Maybe the UA rep did not understand your specific complaint, or had wrong information.

What on earth does " In your situation, your flights on January 28 from Los Angeles to Aspen were cancelled due to extreme weather. You were protected on flight 5554 to Aspen the following day, January 29" even mean? :evil:

Does that mean you were or were not given the option of trying to fly LAX-Aspen the following day? Was this offered by UA? Was this rejected/accepted?

You would think that one of the largest airlines in the world subjected to weather delays in winter could get this stuff right.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Our booked and confirmed flight was from LAX to Aspen and return, 28 th Jan outbound and Feb 10 return.
On the 28th Aspen was open and closed at various times.
We eventually departed LAX on the 28th - to Grand Junction and then bus to Aspen.
There was never any advice as to departing LAX the next day - I have no idea what a protected flight is - it was never discussed.
There was great confusion at LAX on our departure - nobody seemed to know what was going on.
We were not offered a flight the next day.
The problem is that United cancelled our return fare claiming that we did not take the outbound leg from LA - we did, but to Grand Junction.
They did not alter their computer records - therfore as far as they are concerned our ticket was cancelled - as is their right.
But they were wrong - we did depart on the flight except the flight no was changed and they did not issue new boarding passes.
As a result we were denied boarding on our return.
They are a huge airline, and I accept that they may make mistakes - however they don't - and their public relations are woefull.
The air passenger rights in the USA were changed, to take effect from Jan this year, to stop the autocratic behaviour of airlines but it appears
United havn't caught up.
I am not cross with what happened, but I am cross with the attitude of United who appear to ignore that they could make a mistake, and
remember I am Old and Tired ( And Cranky ) !

Sorry for the rant !

 

[eastwest101]

Our booked and confirmed flight was from LAX to Aspen and return, 28 th Jan outbound and Feb 10 return.
On the 28th Aspen was open and closed at various times.
We eventually departed LAX on the 28th - to Grand Junction and then bus to Aspen.
There was never any advice as to departing LAX the next day - I have no idea what a protected flight is - it was never discussed.
There was great confusion at LAX on our departure - nobody seemed to know what was going on.
We were not offered a flight the next day.
The problem is that United cancelled our return fare claiming that we did not take the outbound leg from LA - we did, but to Grand Junction.
They did not alter their computer records - therfore as far as they are concerned our ticket was cancelled - as is their right.
But they were wrong - we did depart on the flight except the flight no was changed and they did not issue new boarding passes.
As a result we were denied boarding on our return.
They are a huge airline, and I accept that they may make mistakes - however they don't - and their public relations are woefull.
The air passenger rights in the USA were changed, to take effect from Jan this year, to stop the autocratic behaviour of airlines but it appears
United havn't caught up.
I am not cross with what happened, but I am cross with the attitude of United who appear to ignore that they could make a mistake, and
remember I am Old and Tired ( And Cranky ) !

Sorry for the rant !

I am not surprised about the rant - putting the weather aside, which no-one can control, your experience with UA sounds more like an Ryanair reaction to IIROPS rather than a supposed full service carrier operating in a first world country. And their customer service response was amateurish.


OK - now I understand the issue about what happened with what flight, and it is clearly a UA booking system screw up, as you say. It would appear that UA customer service are either in denial or choosing to ignore your complaint, but maybe other members here have better advice than me about effective complaints - I think there was even a thread about it somewhere? I had a quick look but couldn't find it. You would think it would be a sticky thread somewhere.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

After emailing the CEO of United, I received the following :


"Thank you for your reply.

I apologize I was not more clear in my original response. Our records
include the information that you were on the flight that diverted to
Grand Junction. In your record, our system automatically protected you
for travel on January 29, 2013. As ground transportation was used, the
system automatically cancelled the remainder of your itinerary.

Mr. ********, this information is being offered to explain why your
return travel was cancelled. When this was discovered, you were
rebooked out of Denver, as you stated you made your way to Denver.

Denied Boarding compensation applies only to an Oversold flight
situation. The circumstances surrounding this, again, do not qualify
for Denied Boarding compensation.

As a gesture of goodwill, I have authorized a $150 electronic travel
certificate for both you and Mrs. Roddick. The certificate will arrive
in a separate e-mail within 3 to 5 business days.

As a global carrier, United is striving to provide you with the best
service in the industry. Of the utmost importance to us and to you are
schedule integrity, customer service and professionalism. We’re
committed to meeting your expectations, and we hope you will give us a
future opportunity to restore your confidence and support. Your
business is important to us.

Regards,

*************
Corporate Customer Care
******* "

My reply :

Thank you for your reply.

In reading the Air Transport rules for the USA I believe that you may not
fully understand our situation.

1.The rules are very clear - we had a confirmed return flight from Aspen.
The fact that it was not recognised by your computer is covered in the
rules.

2. As the return flight tickets were cancelled and then re-sold ( the flight
from Aspen was then full ) and we held two tickets the flight was clearly
oversold.

3. United could only offer a flight from Aspen some 4 hours later, and as
previously explained it was my decision to make our way to Denver and ticket
on from there,
again at our expense.

4. Compensation offered does not cover our costs, your Airline did not offer
any assistance or explain to us our rights.

5. I understand that I have other remedies in this matter but think that a
negotiation direct with your Company is a reasonable approach at this time.

6. Under the circumstances I am, at this time, prepared to accept vouchers
for two return tickets with two bags each from LAX to Denver for use in
Jan/Feb
next year on our next trip to Aspen but I reserve the right to seek the
compensation in the full amount allowed under the rules should you not find
my offer
acceptable.

Thank you for your consideration and I look forward to a speedy resolution.

 

[docjames]

Will be interesting to see if they reply first, or if the vouchers arrive first.

 

[eastwest101]

Very interesting response from UA. I think its tacit acceptance that yes their reservation systems screwed up, now its just a matter of how painful you want to be to them. At least they admit that there is a problem - now its just a negotiation phase to what you and UA can find as acceptable. Although I suspect you would much prefer to hear about what UA are doing in the future to prevent things like this happening to other people, that may be a bit more difficult to extract from any company in my experience but good luck.

Thanks for getting back to us, persistence does pay.....

 

[MEL_Traveller]

just for some clarity - how were you offered the flight to Grand Junction followed by the bus? You say there were no new boarding passes issued, but how did this pass the scanner to allow you to board? Was it the same flight number? Same delayed pax from your flight all travelling the same way? how did you know to board the flight to Grand Junction? Did they tell everyone to go to the gate?

Assuming UA carried you to Grand Junction and then Aspen by bus, your ticket should have remained 'live'. They however are saying you were supposed to fly the next day. How did you end up boarding the earlier flight to GJ?

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

All passengers were at the gate - waiting for an on and off again flight to Aspen with continuing mixed messages from the check in staff.
Finally it was announced the flight would be going to Grand Junction and that we would be bused from there to Aspen.
On commencement of boarding they started to re-issue boarding passes but realised that this would take some time and I heard a staff member
telling another "don't bother with new passes - just use the old ones.
I don't recall if our passes were scanned or just looked at, as the bags were all ready loaded new tags were not issued, and on arrival at Aspen Airport by bus
were had to collect our bags from the baggage area at Aspen - they were taken from the bus into the terminal - we were not allowed to pick up our
bags from the bus.
It turns out that the flight did in fact have a new flight no.
Were were not advised at any time about the "protected flight" the next day.
Obviously the computer system was by-passed in some way causing the eventual cancellation of our ticket and the "denied boarding".

There is no clear definition in the TSA rules of denied boarding although it is generally used for oversold flights with a request for passengers who would like to
be bumped for compensation ( such compensation is clearly spelt out in the TSA rules and includes a "fine" on the airlines) but the way I read the rules it applies
in our case.

It's not the money, in fact I have offered to settle for an amount about half of what the rules allow. it's the attitude that United took when I first
contacted them about their error, on top of a lost baggage incident 12 months earlier when they lost our bags twice and we were without our ski gear for nearly three days.

The TSA has been concerned for some time at the attitude of the airlines in the US hence their new passanger "Bill of Rights" that came into effect Jan this year and I would
advise any one travelling by air in the US to become familiar with these regulations.

 

[burmans]

All passengers were at the gate - waiting for an on and off again flight to Aspen with continuing mixed messages from the check in staff.
Finally it was announced the flight would be going to Grand Junction and that we would be bused from there to Aspen.
On commencement of boarding they started to re-issue boarding passes but realised that this would take some time and I heard a staff member
telling another "don't bother with new passes - just use the old ones.
I don't recall if our passes were scanned or just looked at, as the bags were all ready loaded new tags were not issued, and on arrival at Aspen Airport by bus
were had to collect our bags from the baggage area at Aspen - they were taken from the bus into the terminal - we were not allowed to pick up our
bags from the bus.
It turns out that the flight did in fact have a new flight no.
Were were not advised at any time about the "protected flight" the next day.
Obviously the computer system was by-passed in some way causing the eventual cancellation of our ticket and the "denied boarding".

There is no clear definition in the TSA rules of denied boarding although it is generally used for oversold flights with a request for passengers who would like to
be bumped for compensation ( such compensation is clearly spelt out in the TSA rules and includes a "fine" on the airlines) but the way I read the rules it applies
in our case.

It's not the money, in fact I have offered to settle for an amount about half of what the rules allow. it's the attitude that United took when I first
contacted them about their error, on top of a lost baggage incident 12 months earlier when they lost our bags twice and we were without our ski gear for nearly three days.

The TSA has been concerned for some time at the attitude of the airlines in the US hence their new passanger "Bill of Rights" that came into effect Jan this year and I would
advise any one travelling by air in the US to become familiar with these regulations.

While I don't particularly agree with the definition of "denied boarding" as defined and used by UA, I can't help but feeling you are playing into UA's hands and making it much harder for yourself by your insistance of using this language. I can't help but thinking you would be far better served by using other wording to describe your situation than continuing to insist on use of that particular clause.

I do think you have a perfectly valid claim that you turned up for a confirmed flight which United had mistakenly cancelled and should not have cancelled given it was them who arranged the alternate transportation and think you should stick to this argument. The use of the "denied boarding" language is not only confusing matters but is giving them a valid excuse for rejection, the rejection for denied boarding as per their rules is IMO valid, cancelling your flight and not accepting responsibility isn't, and its this line you should be taking.

 

[eastwest101]

I agree with Burmans - it is UA's booking system, their failure to communicate, their booking system that failed, their cancelling your tickets without authorization, its all their (UA) problem. You have a case to argue, and I can sort of see why you are taking the "denied boarding" approach, as you can interpret the situation to suit a "denied boarding" story, but to stop being fobbed off, you need to get UA to admit that they make a mistake, and also make it expensive enough so that they hopefully learn their lesson. You have a great case for some sort of compensation, but you cannot control if they choose to learn their lesson or not.

Thanks for the tip about the future bill of pax rights - should be some interesting times in the USA ahead for inept/incompetent airline staff and their managers ahead!

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Thanks for the interest and suggestions.
Maybe "Denied Boarding" is the wrong approach but I think I might have gone to far to change now.
I do have the option to report this incident to the TSA for their advice and if they think it appropriate they will contact UA, but
at the present time I am pressing on with UA direct.
I send e-mails to Customer (We Don't) Care and if I havn't had an answer I copy my email to the UA CEO, he doesn't answer but it seems
to generate a reply from Customer (We Don't) Care.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks for the interest and suggestions.
Maybe "Denied Boarding" is the wrong approach but I think I might have gone to far to change now.
I do have the option to report this incident to the TSA for their advice and if they think it appropriate they will contact UA, but
at the present time I am pressing on with UA direct.
I send e-mails to Customer (We Don't) Care and if I havn't had an answer I copy my email to the UA CEO, he doesn't answer but it seems
to generate a reply from Customer (We Don't) Care.

So UA screwed up, not having your boarding pass scanned is a very rare event these days, but for many it would trigger warning bells that if your bp isn't scanned, then you won't be recorded as having taken the flight. This would generally mean (a) no FF points and (b) that you risk all further flights being cancelled because of a no-show.

In this case, you need to get back to United and ask them to check their records - what they need to see is that the original flight took off as planned, but only as far as Grand junction. That's what united is missing from the picture at this stage. They don't realise you actually flew, and they think you missed the flight the next day that they had placed you on (and you probably have no reason to know you had been protected on the flight the next day because you ended up flying on the original day. you only would have found out about the protected flight is you had made further enquiries if you were stuck at the airport).

Once they can place you on the flight (which without the bp being scanned will be hard, but they can check with the gate agents to see what happened on that day - there'll be a whole bunch of pax without scanned bps from the sound of it) - then you can make your claim for compensation.

 

[bjaust]

It sounds like you're getting treated quite unfairly. I once had to endure a five hour mechanical delay on a EWR-CDG flight on United and was given an on-the-spot meal voucher and a $300 voucher without asking. I understood that the amount of the voucher depended on the class of travel, but that was a relatively minor inconvenience compared to your experience.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

The latest reply from United :

"I regret you continue to be unhappy with our response.

Denied boarding compensation applies when a customer is confirmed for a
flight, checks in and is then denied boarding due to an oversale
situation. As I explained, due to weather, you were re-booked for
travel on January 29. When you chose to take ground transportation, the
remaining segments in your itinerary were cancelled. While I
understand this caused a later departure and was an inconvenience,
Denied Boarding Compensation does not apply.

We can empathize with the disappointment you have expressed. Please
understand United carefully reviews our guidelines regarding goodwill
compensation annually to make sure that they are properly aligned to
several determining factors. Our intentions are to find a mix of
meaningful options for our customers.

I understand that our goodwill offering cannot compensate you for the
undue anxiety which you experienced throughout this incident.
Nonetheless, this certificate is provided as a tangible expression of
our regret over what transpired when you traveled with us, and our
gratitude for your interest in United Airlines.

Thank you for this opportunity to respond.

Regards,

************
Corporate Customer Care
6291131/6274059"

Ite seems that I have a different view of denied boarding, so before I reply I have contacted the FAA for their definition .
I was not advised that I had a booking on the 29th and there were not any cancellations on the 28th ( our departure date ) due weather.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ite seems that I have a different view of denied boarding, so before I reply I have contacted the FAA for their definition .
I was not advised that I had a booking on the 29th and there were not any cancellations on the 28th ( our departure date ) due weather.

As others have said, you can only be denied boarding for a flight on which you are ticketed and confirmed.

In this case you weren't denied boarding as defined for the purposed of aviation travel. Rather, there was a major screw-up and your flight coupon was cancelled.

What you had was a contract for carriage that was breached when UA failed to scan your boarding pass for your outbound flight and subsequently cancelled the remaining sectors. UA is trying to say you no-showed for the flight the next day and so they were in their rights to breach the contract. But that is not the case as it was their fault for not scanning the boarding passes.

As a breach of contract you are entitled to compensation for damages. This is equal to any additional expenses you incurred. Any goodwill gesture would be over and above the actual damages for loss.

 

[eastwest101]

What you had was a contract for carriage that was breached when UA failed to scan your boarding pass for your outbound flight and subsequently cancelled the remaining sectors. UA is trying to say you no-showed for the flight the next day and so they were in their rights to breach the contract. But that is not the case as it was their fault for not scanning the boarding passes.

As a breach of contract you are entitled to compensation for damages. This is equal to any additional expenses you incurred. Any goodwill gesture would be over and above the actual damages for loss.

Totally agree with these comments - says what I was trying to say but a whole lot clearer. You can see from the latest UA email that they are also trying to wiggle out of it by saying that, because you elected to take ground transportation from Grand Junction to Aspen, then UA can cancel your entire ticket, you shouldn't even allow them to entertain that argument or engage in it, yet. They can try that if they want, but you have to stick to the "why wasn't my boarding pass scanned on departure from LA?" story, as MEL_Traveller points out, that seems to be the source of the whole problem. I wouldn't seek it yet - but I would love to hear how UA could possibly claim that by you electing to take the UA provided ground transportation from Grand Junction to Aspen then how that can possibly get allow UA to breach the rest of their contract for carriage (i.e. the return Aspen to LAX flights).

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

The interesting part is that the return flight was cancelled by UA as they claim we did not depart LAX - nothing to do with ground transport etc.
United Airlines seem to be "clutching at straws".
The fact that they cancelled our tickets in error, and they no longer appeared in the computer is not an excuse and is covered in the FAA rules.Further more according to the rules we had confirmed tickets - the flight was full, we had tickets, they did not have available seats therefor more tickets than seats equals an oversold flight.
Remember I am not at this stage claiming the amount allowed - simply a reasonable settlement .

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The interesting part is that the return flight was cancelled by UA as they claim we did not depart LAX - nothing to do with ground transport etc.
United Airlines seem to be "clutching at straws".
The fact that they cancelled our tickets in error, and they no longer appeared in the computer is not an excuse and is covered in the FAA rules.Further more according to the rules we had confirmed tickets - the flight was full, we had tickets, they did not have available seats therefor more tickets than seats equals an oversold flight.
Remember I am not at this stage claiming the amount allowed - simply a reasonable settlement .

rather than 'clutching at straws' I think it is fair to say that United just doesn't appreciate what actually happened - which is the original flight departed, with you on it. The fact that your boarding pass was not scanned is 90% their fault, but also 10% your fault (you should have realised the implications of not having your boarding pass scanned and at least called after arrival, given the circumstances, to confirm your onward flights).

The situation is NOT covered by the FAA as you keep claiming. Because United did not scan your boarding pass, you were considered a no-show. As a no-show UA is entitled to cancel the rest of your itinerary. That is industry standard. So when you turned up for your return flight you weren't denied boarding -you didn't have a valid ticket coupon for that flight... it had been cancelled.

The root cause of that cancellation is a separate issue from denied boarding. If you make that argument clear to UA then I think you will have a better chance of success. you need to work with them to help them understand.

 

[burmans]

rather than 'clutching at straws' I think it is fair to say that United just doesn't appreciate what actually happened - which is the original flight departed, with you on it. The fact that your boarding pass was not scanned is 90% their fault, but also 10% your fault (you should have realised the implications of not having your boarding pass scanned and at least called after arrival, given the circumstances, to confirm your onward flights).

The situation is NOT covered by the FAA as you keep claiming. Because United did not scan your boarding pass, you were considered a no-show. As a no-show UA is entitled to cancel the rest of your itinerary. That is industry standard. So when you turned up for your return flight you weren't denied boarding -you didn't have a valid ticket coupon for that flight... it had been cancelled.

The root cause of that cancellation is a separate issue from denied boarding. If you make that argument clear to UA then I think you will have a better chance of success. you need to work with them to help them understand.

This essentially agrees with what I said a few posts ago, they are replaying the denied boarding answer at you because you keep replaying at them, I agree with Mel_Traveller that the key thing you take issue with UA is the statement "When you chose to take ground transportation".

They have not addressed the fact that this is incorrect, primarily it would appear because you have emphasised this issue but rather the denied boarding. I would re-terate my agreement with Mel_Traveller that its time to take a different tack. The denied boarding tack is in my opinion akin to beating your head against a brick wal, all you will ever get out of this is a sore head.