Upcoming Qantas Frequent Flyer Changes

[MEL_Traveller]

...

By the way have I mentioned how I loathe the smugness on the faces of dead-heading crew sitting in premium cabins? "Oh look at me I am sitting in business class. I am so much better than you."

Haha :mrgreen:

With two members of the family as former cabin crew i can assure you that is so NOT they way they see it.

Crew rest is essential before long haul flights. Travel in the premium cabin affords a level of relaxation that will pay benefits in the event they need to act quickly in the event of an emergency.

Besides, anyone wanting to pay for business class is free to do so.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

...

Talking to QF through this channel (and some may argue, ALL channels) at the moment is like talking to a black hole - most of the time you're hearing echoes of your own voice. Sooner or later, you'll be sick of it and say nothing.

...

Agree - we may have been asked for feedback... but the changes have already been made and announced.

The opportunity to actually influence the changes is long gone.

What the feedback on this board does is allow QF to identify potential issues which they can then address for their high value customers. (For example 'yes we are aware platinums haven't seen an increase in points earning... but what we are doing is [a/b/c]'.

It makes QF look very proactive to those customers.

QF is a smart organisation that makes a profit. Their FF arm is very profitable. I dont think the comments on this baord would come as a surprise to them. Nor do I think that will be too concerned about the loss of business of low level platinums (not saying all members on this board are low level platinums).

 

[russ]

QF is a smart organisation that makes a profit.

... just not a dividend!

Investors - Dividend History

 

[TonyHancock]

I dont think the comments on this baord would come as a surprise to them.

....but interestingly there was one that was not anticipated. It was something along the lines of "where do the changes leave platinums in regard to OW status?"

The answer was unchanged, but the question, asked by one or two platinums here does make me think a little.

It does suggest a level of disconnect between QF and some of it's FFs. My, almost instinctive, reaction to QF program change announcements is "what are they going to take away this time?" This creates a problem for QF because even announcements that carry a lot of positive changes are viewed as negative overall.

I think that QF needs to work on it's communication strategy. I'd rather hear it straight if there is going to be a reduction in benefits. Trying to put a positive spin on benefit reductions by calling them enhancements or exciting creates an antipathy that lingers, particularly in forums like this.

An announcement of benefit reduction will still cause plenty of uproar but I think things settle down faster and in the medium to longer term QF will gain respect for presenting things as they are.

I don't think this annoucement was handled very well, and in reality if the upgrade improvements for WPs had been sorted and included I suspect there would have been a much more positive response.*


* Unless of course the upgrade improvements were not really improvements

 

[Princess Fiona]

Phew!! I'm exhausted after reading the last 10 pages.
I'm not particularly bothered about the status bonus not increasing in line with SG/PS. It would have been nice for the annual loyalty bonus rollover of SC's to not be applied to NB's.
I would like QF to allow WP's travelling on regional partner airlines (Brindabella, Aeropelican) to be allowed access to the QP ( I was told this was the case by QF in a telephone call to me but this has never been published). Also allowing WP's to guest family into the lounges.
Confirmed international upgrades at time of booking ( one can only dream), an SMS message 12 hours before would be a joke not an improvement.
I will never be close to WP1 ( get 1200-1400 SC per year 90% QF metal) but some consistency on CSM greetings, priority boarding etc coupled with what I have mentioned above would IMHO be a great incentive to achieve/ retain WP
YMMV

 

[AnonymousCoward]

By the way I am not being critical of you or anyone who gets status the best way they can. I simply do not understand why anyone would think that a QFF Platinum who gets status via other airlines is not important and should not be entitled to the benefits of that status. Funny how QFF sees fit to provide all benefits of Platinum status to anyone holding Platinum status.

That's not the point. The point I was making is that QF is not going to offer space-available upgrades. Space available upgrades will *cost* QF foregone revenue (because people will know that they can book a cheaper ticket provided that there are still spare J/F seats available) however the revenue of making platinum is given to some other airline (e.g. AA).

QF gives Plat benefits to all Plat members: true. However I don't believe that they will ever give space available upgrades to QF Plat members unless/until a requirement to actually provide some revenue to QF comes in (and more than just the current 4 squiggles/year)

Just as well as some people on AFF would have us believe that a person who has QFF gold status courtesy of a QF SYD-LHR return in F is more important than someone who does 60-80 domestic QF red e-deals a year and some international flights to maintain Platinum status!

I predict that cheap fares will eventually lose SC and points earning (like many other airlines already do). Maybe your position will change then. It's already a fact of life for many other FF programs.

 

[nlagalle]

I predict that cheap fares will eventually lose SC and points earning (like many other airlines already do). Maybe your position will change then. It's already a fact of life for many other FF programs.

If they did that, then they will loose a lot more. Especially as DJ offer SC's and points for all fares..

Can't see it happening anytime soon personally.

 

[dajop]

If they did that, then they will loose a lot more. Especially as DJ offer SC's and points for all fares..

Can't see it happening anytime soon personally.

No, I can't either. If you look at QF's major competitors (DJ, EK, NZ, SQ), two offer points/status credits on all fares (albeit lower fares = lower points). One (NZ) only offers status credits on its lowest fares, FWIW, not points. That leaves SQ who have a different loyalty offering for those at the low fare end of the spectrum - provide good service - which works well for SQ at least in its home market.

 

[oz_mark]

If they did that, then they will loose a lot more. Especially as DJ offer SC's and points for all fares..

Can't see it happening anytime soon personally.

While I can't see it any time soon, and the 1000 points minimum quite rewarding for folk on the short eastern routes, the comparison with DJ needs to be viewed in light of what DJ offers.

While DJ do offer points on all fares, they are compartively scrappy on the cheap fares. Fly to Perth on cheapie and you don't get even 1,000 points. Now this is something I hope they address in their changes.

 

[JohnK]

I predict that cheap fares will eventually lose SC and points earning (like many other airlines already do). Maybe your position will change then. It's already a fact of life for many other FF programs.

I don't think this will happen anytime in the forseeable future. If it did happen I truly believe QF would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Why would anyone book a $75 airfare on QF that does not earn SCs and QFF points when they can book a $65 airfare on VA that earns 325 Velocity points?

Anyway I will have Lifetime Gold if that change ever happens and may even have Lifetime Platinum....

 

[dfcatch]

There's been plenty of complaining about how QF doesn't listen, QF doesn't care, blah blah.

If I was the marketing department of QF, then I would start to question whether it's worth engaging the community via this endeavour, since so little of the commentary here is commercially savvy, or even constructive. They can spend their time on better, more productive ways to make a more profitable airline.

QF is not a charity. If you want benefits - find a way to justify it to them. Or convince DJ to offer something corresponding (but again, don't expect to not lose something in another area: someone - i.e. the customer, always has to pay)

Anonymous - you are wrong here.

It's up to Qantas to ensure that their loyalty program functions in a way where it actually works. Ie. It encourages FFs to stay with QF and continue to spend more $$$.

That's why they have a loyalty program. To reward you for flying QF and directing your spend to them and not DJ/NZ/SQ etc.

Of course the provision of benefits will cost them. That's the point!!

They spend money on benefits so that you will continue to spend money with them.

You're right - they're not a charity. And they are welcome to scrap the whole FF program if they wish.

Then they will have to compete solely on the hard/soft product/price.

Now that would be interesting.

I for one wouldn't be flying QF anymore (on pretty much any of my current routes).

In fact the more I think about it - I would have much better international connections if I didn't fly QF. And I would save money.

I know they don't want to do it, but if DJ joined *A, I would switch to them immediately. That includes my next 6 transpacifics currently booked with QF.

And there are a ton on FFs in my boat, something to think about DJ.....

ps. Anonymous - when flying on AA or any other OW airline - QF DOES get paid on a per SC basis for the SCs and points you earn on the partner airline. They're not missing out.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

....but interestingly there was one that was not anticipated. It was something along the lines of "where do the changes leave platinums in regard to OW status?"

The answer was unchanged, but the question, asked by one or two platinums here does make me think a little.

It does suggest a level of disconnect between QF and some of it's FFs. My, almost instinctive, reaction to QF program change announcements is "what are they going to take away this time?" This creates a problem for QF because even announcements that carry a lot of positive changes are viewed as negative overall.

I think that QF needs to work on it's communication strategy. I'd rather hear it straight if there is going to be a reduction in benefits. Trying to put a positive spin on benefit reductions by calling them enhancements or exciting creates an antipathy that lingers, particularly in forums like this.

An announcement of benefit reduction will still cause plenty of uproar but I think things settle down faster and in the medium to longer term QF will gain respect for presenting things as they are.

I don't think this annoucement was handled very well, and in reality if the upgrade improvements for WPs had been sorted and included I suspect there would have been a much more positive response.*

* Unless of course the upgrade improvements were not really improvements

Good points. However - the questions of 'where does this leave plats and OW?' never entered my mind. I automatically assumed it would retain the OWE status - just like there are many airlines with dual levels in their top tier (for example LH HON status is still star gold, the BA special services or what ever it is is still OWE for all other intents and purposes).

I guess QF thought most people would make the same assumption... (yes i know what they say about people making assumpitons )

As for the plat 1 status - this is just standard PR stuff - creating a bit of hype and vibe.

Backfire as far as AFF is concerned? Probably. But as far as other plats are concerned... the wording on the website looks positive and if you are eligible then you'll find out the benefits in due course.

What will be interesting is that a couple of friends were downgraded from CL to plat last year (never flew Qantas). They had their plat renewed this year automatically (still no qf flights!). I wonder if they will be given P1??

 

[AnonymousCoward]

ps. Anonymous - when flying on AA or any other OW airline - QF DOES get paid on a per SC basis for the SCs and points you earn on the partner airline. They're not missing out.

Hmm - let's assume this happens (I'm struggling to think why AA would pay for SCs - I suppose they could buy the points). How much do you think this would be? And how many F lounge meals (of the type described here) do you think that covers?

 

[dfcatch]

Hmm - let's assume this happens (I'm struggling to think why AA would pay for SCs - I suppose they could buy the points). How much do you think this would be? And how many F lounge meals (of the type described here) do you think that covers?

Why does it happen?

Because all partner and alliance airlines have arrangements in place for reciprocity as part of their partner/alliance agreements.

Eg. When flying on AA but crediting to QF, AA pays QF for the SCs and FF points. (Remember AA receives the flight revenue, but doesn't have to bear the cost of providing the points from their own system).
When a QF FF uses the AA lounge, QF pays AA for the lounge visit.
Same applies in reverse and for all partner/alliance examples.

Nothing is for free in the FF business, just as your bank pays QF for the points you get on your CC.

Every point/SC you earn is paid for by the company giving you those QF points. That's how QFF is so profitable. When you redeem QF points, QFF "pays" QF for the flights.

It makes the most sense if you think of FF points as a form of "currency". That's how the FF programs are structured.

In terms of your second question - if you're using the F lounge, then you're flying internationally. And international fares are expensive enough that QF isn't losing out. Especially considering that if you weren't indulging in the F lounge then you're probably going to save money by flying someone else. (and then QF misses out on the revenue).

Yes - before you bring up JQ35 F lounge runs, let's remember that the vast majority of WP flights are NOT $25 price match F lounge runs

 

[AnonymousCoward]

If they did that, then they will loose a lot more. Especially as DJ offer SC's and points for all fares..

Can't see it happening anytime soon personally.

No - I don't think it will happen soon. But I predict it will happen, in a few years (provided that DJ remains a competitor).

Price competition, plus the competition to provide services, entails additional cost. Since there isn't much ability to raise prices, cuts in costs will be required to pay for increased salaries, and better services.

Eventually, trimming FF benefits (redemptions or ability to earn) will come into play. And I predict that cheap fares will no longer have a minimum point earn, or will earn zero SCs.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

It makes the most sense if you think of FF points as a form of "currency". That's how the FF programs are structured.

Well aware of the points purchase systems. However I have not heard anything about status system purchases. If this was available, why wouldn't QF sell status to numerous other vendors (whether that be top-end CCs or similar)?

Personally, I don't think this exists - due to the immense costs that it imposes on the airline. The fact that only a single OW airline has this as an option (and even then, for a single year only) supports my case. Happy to see what evidence you have to support the opposite argument.

In terms of your second question - if you're using the F lounge, then you're flying internationally. And international fares are expensive enough that QF isn't losing out.

Expensive doesn't mean that the fare is profitable. QF has stated publicly (and this means that is must have some legal basis for the statement - or be guilty of misleading the market) that it's international arm is non-profitable. Each "visit" to the F lounge will probably cost QF more than it's making on any cheap fare IMHO

 

[dfcatch]

Well aware of the points purchase systems. However I have not heard anything about status system purchases. If this was available, why wouldn't QF sell status to numerous other vendors (whether that be top-end CCs or similar)?

Personally, I don't think this exists - due to the immense costs that it imposes on the airline. The fact that only a single OW airline has this as an option (and even then, for a single year only) supports my case. Happy to see what evidence you have to support the opposite argument.



Expensive doesn't mean that the fare is profitable. QF has stated publicly (and this means that is must have some legal basis for the statement - or be guilty of misleading the market) that it's international arm is non-profitable. Each "visit" to the F lounge will probably cost QF more than it's making on any cheap fare IMHO

QF are welcome to fly that international flight with or without a bum in the seat. Whether the seat is profitable or not if QF's business. But I'm sure they would prefer to fill it vs not filling it. And the additional revenue from the seat is still more than the consumption at the F lounge (JQ35 excluded).

Not sure what you mean by "only a single OW airline has this as an option".

All airlines that you can earn QF SC's on (as per the Airline Earning Table), have a commercial arrangement with QF for the SC's. (just as with points). And vice versa for airlines for which QF flights allow their FF's to earn status.

Not restricted to one year, nor one airline.

Why can't you buy status with your CC? Because status is the one thing that differentiates a Frequent Flyer from a Frequent Spender. (As you already know).

With regard to AA status earners:

1/ You can fly AA as an AAdvantage member, get AA status, then use that status on OW airlines such as QF for benefits.
AA gets the revenue, AAdvantage bears the cost of the points/status earned, and when the AAdvantage member uses a QF lounge - QF bills AAdvantage.

2/ A QF member can fly AA.
AA gets the revenue. AA reimburses QFF for the cost of the points/status.
When using an AA lounge
- AA bills QFF. When using a QF lounge, QFF bears the cost.

3/ A QF member flys QF. QF gets the revenue, QFF bears the cost of the points/status, and when you visit a QF lounge, QFF bears the cost.


Either way - QF isn't a charity, and they are getting paid one way or the other, regardless of whom you fly.
The program to whom you belong pays the lounge visit costs.

As far as the exact amounts of the transfer payments in the commercial arrangements? Top secret stuff there - but I doubt that anyone thinks that QF would screw themselves over

 

[aus_flyer]

With regard to AA status earners:

1/ You can fly AA as an AAdvantage member, get AA status, then use that status on OW airlines such as QF for benefits.
AA gets the revenue, AAdvantage bears the cost of the points/status earned, and when the AAdvantage member uses a QF lounge - QF bills AAdvantage.

2/ A QF member can fly AA.
AA gets the revenue. AA reimburses QFF for the cost of the points/status.
When using an AA lounge - AA bills QFF. When using a QF lounge, QFF bears the cost.

...

Either way - QF isn't a charity, and they are getting paid one way or the other, regardless of whom you fly.
The program to whom you belong pays the lounge visit costs.

Are you sure about this? Really?

It's been reported (correctly AFAIK) many times that it's the operating carrier that pays - not the airline that actually gave the pax status.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Are you sure about this? Really?

It's been reported (correctly AFAIK) many times that it's the operating carrier that pays - not the airline that actually gave the pax status.

It's the operating carrier that pays.

So if I am a QFFF, flying CX, and accessing a BA (not joint) lounge, CX actually pays out twice... once to QF for the miles, and once to BA for me using the lounge.

 

[aus_flyer]

It's the operating carrier that pays.

So if I am a QFFF, flying CX, and accessing a BA (not joint) lounge, CX actually pays out twice... once to QF for the miles, and once to BA for me using the lounge.

Yeah, I kinda knew that...

Perhaps I was being too subtle...