USA Air Traffic Controllers - Still safe to travel to the USA?

[Renato1]

Renato - only you can decide if you are going to cancel all your future travel to America based on a news report. For me, I have zero concerns.

Thanks. I have just shown my wife the two Carlson reports this morning.
As an avid viewer of "Air Crash Investigators", she was aghast and said that she no longer wants to go to the USA.

President Trump is a regular watcher of Fox News. It will be interesting to see how he reacts.
Regards,
Renato

 

[dajop]

Assuming Carlson's time line is correct and the Forbes article is correct, it means that the discrimination against the best applicants was in full force from 2014 to 2016, and remains so to this day for applicants coming from the general public.

Yes, but this only pertains to selection criteria (and from 2016 onwards the only for those coming from general public). It may well be "discrimination". It may well not sit well with your views on diversity having a place in selection criteria. But the question - has it impacted safety?

Irrespective how you get in the door, the question should be asked what processes are in place to stop incapable persons from taking the controls? Noting that, being selected then means (from Forbes article) .. "... the first several months will require intensive training at the FAA's training academy .." I am sure FAA would have strict standards to move people from trainee status to actually staffing ATC operations. The question I would be asking is around this piece, does the initial hiring policy flow through to "graduation", one suspects not. The rest is just politics and entertainment (media driving views).

Personally, on global scale, it still have greater faith in ATC in the USA as run by FAA than in many countries - particularly those with known corruption problems, such as Indonesia, Philippines, etc. (even though I still fly in those countries). We all have our own views, but I think it would be foolish to avoid flying in the US, but at the same time continue to fly over places where you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes ... and media does not hold anyone to account.

 

[nickfromeastryde]

Renato - only you can decide if you are going to cancel all your future travel to America based on a news report. For me, I have zero concerns.

A common theme with Renato's various posts, he asks questions or offers an opinion and then spends the rest of the time attacking anyone that doesn't agree with him

 

[Quickstatus]

Just because some are unemployed does not make them unemployable.

I don’t broadly see an issue with the supposed FAA hiring policy. Why does an ATC need to be an ex pilot, have an aviation industry career, or have a science degree.

Let’s look at the attributes of an ATC

Excellent memory- many processes and procedures
Situational awareness - not prone to tunnel vision can step back and see the big picture
Resilience - training is going to be tough and the job is stressful. Able to make decision under pressure
Team player - the job is much more than 1 ATC. Often handing over to colleagues and asking for help and giving assistance
Hard worker - doesn’t mind the hours
Emotional stability - emotions cannot cloud the job.
Attention to detail - does not rely on assumptions
Multitasking ability - can the candidate touch nose and pull the left ear?
Excellent communication skills

None of these are the basis of ANY university degree that I know of. They may be the basis of success academically but not the basis of a degree. Remember these days a University degree is just an expensive form of signalling.

They can describe a pilot but do you need to be a pilot first?. A baggage handler or a despatcher with these skills could be shortlisted but do you need to a baggage handler/despatcher to attain those skills?

It’s a media beatup. Irrespective of the political chasm (USA) stories such as these sell because they get people to tune in. That’s all.

Sort of like the Instagram bloggers who think that a million followers make their content important

I remember a gardener at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital Sydney who went on the become an excellent plastic and reconstructive surgeon at the same hospital. I suppose he was good with his hands, with an attention to detail, and humble in personality

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There seems to just be one tiny problem with the Fox news report.... lack of any evidence or facts to support the position that air traffic control is any less safe under the diversity program!

Now, there may be proof out there. Which is being covered up. But without that proof this new story seems pretty baseless.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Irrespective how you get in the door, the question should be asked what processes are in place to stop incapable persons from taking the controls?

Exactly. Let's look at other areas areas of aviation - German Wings, Air France 447 - there's no 'guarantee' that any particular 'class' of person is going to be any better than another. I'm quite sure if there were two equivalent air disasters in the USA, directly caused by the failure of ATC, we'd have heard about it.

Thanks. I have just shown my wife the two Carlson reports this morning.
As an avid viewer of "Air Crash Investigators", she was aghast and said that she no longer wants to go to the USA.

Do you know the hiring policies in other countries you fly to? Like Australia? Or Italy? Dubai? Europe? Or are you content to sit back and fly to all those places just because you don't know?

 

[dajop]

Do you know the hiring policies in other countries you fly to? Like Australia? Or Italy? Dubai? Europe? Or are you content to sit back and fly to all those places just because you don't know?

Or Thailand? What about over fly countries? ( I don't know the answer but I assume at some point flights departing Australia heading to Asia will at some point enter PNG or Indonesia airspace or to Middle East over Indian airspace and be under local ATC).

 

[Quickstatus]

ATC in many countries of questionable technical repute are often staffed by expats from countries of unquestioned technical repute

 

[MEL_Traveller]

ATC in many countries of questionable technical repute are often staffed by expats from countries of unquestioned technical repute

True. But those of 'unquestioned' technical repute probably still have to deal with local conditions, infrastructure and operating procedures. You can have a great pilot let down by the infrastructure and practices of the airline and country they're flying for (Thailand for example when it's safety rating was downgraded a couple years back)

 

[Himeno]

This wouldn't be the first time such a report has hit the media. I can recall a couple of years ago a similar type of report based on the fact that the flight a lawyer was on had to go around due to the runway not being cleared in time. Again it was fairly sensationalised that this was symptoms of massive ATC issues, forgetting the fact that it does happen from time to time.

I feel your logic may be a touch knee-jerk, but that is your prerogative whether your remove your plans to travel to the US due to this.

I was on QF15 into LAX in early July last year. We had to spend 30 minutes taxing in circles around the TBIT satellite concourse construction site because a ground handling company had left all their equipment from a prior flight sitting at the gate, preventing the 747 from parking there.
I guess that's LAX Grounds fault thus US ATC is not safe?

 

[Renato1]

Hi Everyone,
So far we have had one respondent saying "but as a flyer, I'm also interested if there is anything to it" which I infer to mean some possible concern regarding the Carlson reports. Meanwhile all other responses do not appear to have any concerns, being either dismissive or not unsupportive of the new selection criteria for ATCs in the USA.

I recollect some ten years ago when one of my staff living on the Victorian/NSW border rang me, to tell me that he was having a month off as his doctor had told him that he had to get his gallbladder removed because of the severe problems he was having. I asked him if the Doctor was from the country area. He said yes. I advised him that my wife had often expressed strong concerns about the quality of Doctors working in country areas, and that she would advise people to get a second opinion in the capital cities.

Two weeks later that member rang me to tell me that he was having a month off, as his Doctor in Melbourne told him that he had to have a hernia/valve fixed because of the severe problems he was having. He asked me to thank my wife profusely, as he would otherwise have had his gallbladder removed for nothing.

So, two qualified doctors - one gives a dud diagnosis from behind his desk, one does more work and gives an accurate diagnosis. I suspect that in critical situations there is a big difference between those who sail through their examinations and those who just pass them.

And now we have the case of air traffic controllers, who used to be chosen on the basis of the best of the best, but who are now instead often chosen on the basis of a social engineering Diversity criteria. Given that any additional errors these new second best types may make can result in hundreds of deaths, then plainly serious consideration should be given to selecting candidates for heart surgery, brain surgery, orthopedic surgery etc on the same basis, as any error they make will only result in a few deaths.
Regards,
Renato

P.S, Sorry for the tardy response - I've been busy trying to nut out flights for next year's vacation.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hi Everyone,
So far we have had one respondent saying "but as a flyer, I'm also interested if there is anything to it" which I infer to mean some possible concern regarding the Carlson reports. Meanwhile all other responses do not appear to have any concerns, being either dismissive or not unsupportive of the new selection criteria for ATCs in the USA.

I recollect some ten years ago when one of my staff living on the Victorian/NSW border rang me, to tell me that he was having a month off as his doctor had told him that he had to get his gallbladder removed because of the severe problems he was having. I asked him if the Doctor was from the country area. He said yes. I advised him that my wife had often expressed strong concerns about the quality of Doctors working in country areas, and that she would advise people to get a second opinion in the capital cities.

Two weeks later that member rang me to tell me that he was having a month off, as his Doctor in Melbourne told him that he had to have a hernia/valve fixed because of the severe problems he was having. He asked me to thank my wife profusely, as he would otherwise have had his gallbladder removed for nothing.

So, two qualified doctors - one gives a dud diagnosis from behind his desk, one does more work and gives an accurate diagnosis. I suspect that in critical situations there is a big difference between those who sail through their examinations and those who just pass them.

And now we have the case of air traffic controllers, who used to be chosen on the basis of the best of the best, but who are now instead often chosen on the basis of a social engineering Diversity criteria. Given that any additional errors these new second best types may make can result in hundreds of deaths, then plainly serious consideration should be given to selecting candidates for heart surgery, brain surgery, orthopedic surgery etc on the same basis, as any error they make will only result in a few deaths.
Regards,
Renato

P.S, Sorry for the tardy response - I've been busy trying to nut out flights for next year's vacation.

A second diagnosis is good advice. Everyone should pursue that avenue if warranted, and if they have the means and opportunity to do it.

But the example you give is one of showing how checks and balances work. The same applies in many fields. There is no reason to believe the same is not happening with air traffic control. The 'diverse' candidates now working for the ATC still need to pass the same stringent exams as an ex pilot would.

And what evidence do you have that an ex pilot makes the best air traffic controller? Just like your doctor example, an ex pilot working as an air traffic controller could also give a 'dud' instruction.

With your upcoming vacation, how will you ensure all air traffic controllers meet your standards? You'll potentially be flying over Indonesia, Thailand, India, the Middle East, maybe Eastern Europe.

 

[mannej]

Hi Everyone,
So far we have had one respondent saying "but as a flyer, I'm also interested if there is anything to it" which I infer to mean some possible concern regarding the Carlson reports. Meanwhile all other responses do not appear to have any concerns, being either dismissive or not unsupportive of the new selection criteria for ATCs in the USA.

I recollect some ten years ago when one of my staff living on the Victorian/NSW border rang me, to tell me that he was having a month off as his doctor had told him that he had to get his gallbladder removed because of the severe problems he was having. I asked him if the Doctor was from the country area. He said yes. I advised him that my wife had often expressed strong concerns about the quality of Doctors working in country areas, and that she would advise people to get a second opinion in the capital cities.

Two weeks later that member rang me to tell me that he was having a month off, as his Doctor in Melbourne told him that he had to have a hernia/valve fixed because of the severe problems he was having. He asked me to thank my wife profusely, as he would otherwise have had his gallbladder removed for nothing.

So, two qualified doctors - one gives a dud diagnosis from behind his desk, one does more work and gives an accurate diagnosis. I suspect that in critical situations there is a big difference between those who sail through their examinations and those who just pass them.

And now we have the case of air traffic controllers, who used to be chosen on the basis of the best of the best, but who are now instead often chosen on the basis of a social engineering Diversity criteria. Given that any additional errors these new second best types may make can result in hundreds of deaths, then plainly serious consideration should be given to selecting candidates for heart surgery, brain surgery, orthopedic surgery etc on the same basis, as any error they make will only result in a few deaths.
Regards,
Renato

P.S, Sorry for the tardy response - I've been busy trying to nut out flights for next year's vacation.

Sorry Renato, but this is rubbish.

The geographical location of a doctor is not relevant. It happens in the big smoke as well where one doctor may give an opinion that is found to be wanting by a different doctor. Without going into too much detail, my Nonno nearly faced the consequences of this whilst fighting lung cancer. It wasn't until a second more accurate opinion was sourced that helped salvage more time compared to if we took the first opinion. Both specialists were based in Metropolitan Perth...

As for your comments regarding ATC selection, there have been examples of poor practice that have lead to accidents well before any diversity recruitment requirements were set. If the holes line up, an accident will happen.

 

[Quickstatus]

Im ROTLF!!! Really this is so funny!!!

Assumption 1
Country doctor not as good as City Doctor

Assumption 2
City Dr gives a different diagnosis to Country Dr so City Dr must be right

Assumption 3
City Dr must have sailed through exams while country Dr must have just scraped through

Assumption 4
2nd diagnosis is different to diagnosis 1, so diagnosis 1 must be wrong

Assumption 5
Diagnosis 1 would have led to an unneccesary operation because diagnosis 2 was different to diagnosis 1

Assumption 6
An operation which fixes a problem must have been the right operation.

Assumption 7
The best of the best are selected on narrow criteria like passing exams

Assumption 8
Drs who work in the country did not go there by choice because if they were the best of the best they would be working in a city

Ok so Renato wont go to the US, thats OK
If Renato got sick in a regional or remote area would he be happy to be treated by the RFDS?. bear in mind a lot of RFDS drs are ex trainees on rotation or just doing a stint as part of their progress in their career
If Renato needed to be retrieved to a tertiary medical centre (where the best of the best are presumably) would he be happy to be flown out by some low hour pilots working for a regional airline.
If Renato only wants the best of the best, how does he know who are the rest. Because in order to know who are the best it is important to also know who are the rest. For surely the best of the best must be a very small group. Not everyone can be best of the best. So at any ATC are they the best of the best or just the rest?
So what about non city ATC?
What about the pilots?

Heres to hoping that Renato's Uber driver is an ex F1 driver!

 

[dajop]

And what evidence do you have that an ex pilot makes the best air traffic controller? Just like your doctor example, an ex pilot working as an air traffic controller could also give a 'dud' instruction.

The piece didn't discuss "ex pilots" it just discussed "licensed pilot". I gather a licensed pilot could just be someone with a private or recreational license, who may not even have the right aptitude for an ATC role. Yet when we hear this we automatically form an image of a commercial pilot who has flown for a commercial operator for some years. An example of how we can easily be manipulated by the media.

Also mention was made of science graduates ... who's to say a biology or organic chemistry major has the right skills either?

One point on diversity, many employers adopt diversity policies not just to be "politically correct", there is a theory that suggests having diverse range of people actually improves performance, as different backgrounds brings different perspectives that can tackle things in different ways, vs having singular "group thought" of people who a very similar. Not sure if that applies to ATC or not. Of course this can go too far though. This story completely lacks context, what proportion of hires were diversity hires? 1 in 2 or 1 in 100?

 

[UP4014]

Anyone read the book "flying safe flying blind".

Some very damming information on US ATC and the FFA from late 20th century in lack of planning and poor equipment.

Worth a read even though old now and will shock some here.

 

[drron]

Absolutely agree with Quickstatus on country doctors.We are not all stupid and sometimes even get the diagnoses that the smart city doctors miss.One stands out.A fellow was sent from the country hospital I worked at straight from our ED to the University hospital as he had had a convulsion.The smart ED doctors performed a test for heart attacks as they usually do and it was positive.As he had some vague chest pain he had an angiogram and stents placed and sent back to the country hospital with a somewhat sarcastic discharge letter.
I as usual performed my own physical examination.As I bared his chest to examine his heart the very obvious melanoma was seen and his brain scan revealed his secondary.The smart doctors in the city got an even more sarcastic letter about their treatment.
Sure I do get things wrong sometimes as unfortunately all doctors do even the very brightest.So a second opinion is a good idea still.

 

[harvyk]

Not going to mince words, I think Fox "news" is right winged sensationalist garbage. They know their audience and they know fear sells.

That now said, I have no issues traveling to the USA (I'm there right now), but I couldn't care less if fox news scares others off from traveling here.

 

[Renato1]

A second diagnosis is good advice. Everyone should pursue that avenue if warranted, and if they have the means and opportunity to do it.

But the example you give is one of showing how checks and balances work. The same applies in many fields. There is no reason to believe the same is not happening with air traffic control. The 'diverse' candidates now working for the ATC still need to pass the same stringent exams as an ex pilot would.

And what evidence do you have that an ex pilot makes the best air traffic controller? Just like your doctor example, an ex pilot working as an air traffic controller could also give a 'dud' instruction.

With your upcoming vacation, how will you ensure all air traffic controllers meet your standards? You'll potentially be flying over Indonesia, Thailand, India, the Middle East, maybe Eastern Europe.

Yes, the "diverse" candidate has to pass the same stringent exam as an ex-pilot.

So, in your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker?

Similary. which of those two is more likely to have the ready aptitude to hang around for hours with headphones on listening to multiple discussions, and be able to quickly hone on potential problems, and resolve them?

The medical example I gave was not any way example of how checks and balances work, rather it was an example of difference in quality by two people who had presumably passed the same test. The only check was me offering my wife's advice.
Regards

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The piece didn't discuss "ex pilots" it just discussed "licensed pilot". I gather a licensed pilot could just be someone with a private or recreational license, who may not even have the right aptitude for an ATC role. Yet when we hear this we automatically form an image of a commercial pilot who has flown for a commercial operator for some years. An example of how we can easily be manipulated by the media.

I did make that assumption! (that they would be ex commercial pilots). As to the suitability of private pilots... I could imagine there must be a few small-time pilots who yearn to 'be with the big guys' flying jets. I wouldn't necessarily know how that would play out when they're in the tower.

Yes, the "diverse" candidate has to pass the same stringent exam as an ex-pilot.

So, in your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker?

Similary. which of those two is more likely to have the ready aptitude to hang around for hours with headphones on listening to multiple discussions, and be able to quickly hone on potential problems, and resolve them?

It doesn’t matter who is more likely to pass the exam. All that matters is that those who do pass are allowed to practice. Those who don’t pass are weeded out. The ex pilot and ex starbucks worker are therefore in exactly the same position when it comes to dealing with air traffic.

Many exams for this type of profession are not simply ‘pass at 50%’. You need to ‘pass’ at a very high level... up in the 80s or 90s (or higher).