USA Air Traffic Controllers - Still safe to travel to the USA?

[Renato1]

Im ROTLF!!! Really this is so funny!!!

Assumption 1
Country doctor not as good as City Doctor

Assumption 2
City Dr gives a different diagnosis to Country Dr so City Dr must be right

Assumption 3
City Dr must have sailed through exams while country Dr must have just scraped through

Assumption 4
2nd diagnosis is different to diagnosis 1, so diagnosis 1 must be wrong

Assumption 5
Diagnosis 1 would have led to an unneccesary operation because diagnosis 2 was different to diagnosis 1

Assumption 6
An operation which fixes a problem must have been the right operation.

Assumption 7
The best of the best are selected on narrow criteria like passing exams

Assumption 8
Drs who work in the country did not go there by choice because if they were the best of the best they would be working in a city

Ok so Renato wont go to the US, thats OK
If Renato got sick in a regional or remote area would he be happy to be treated by the RFDS?. bear in mind a lot of RFDS drs are ex trainees on rotation or just doing a stint as part of their progress in their career
If Renato needed to be retrieved to a tertiary medical centre (where the best of the best are presumably) would he be happy to be flown out by some low hour pilots working for a regional airline.
If Renato only wants the best of the best, how does he know who are the rest. Because in order to know who are the best it is important to also know who are the rest. For surely the best of the best must be a very small group. Not everyone can be best of the best. So at any ATC are they the best of the best or just the rest?
So what about non city ATC?
What about the pilots?

Heres to hoping that Renato's Uber driver is an ex F1 driver!

Sorry Renato, but this is rubbish.

The geographical location of a doctor is not relevant. It happens in the big smoke as well where one doctor may give an opinion that is found to be wanting by a different doctor. Without going into too much detail, my Nonno nearly faced the consequences of this whilst fighting lung cancer. It wasn't until a second more accurate opinion was sourced that helped salvage more time compared to if we took the first opinion. Both specialists were based in Metropolitan Perth...

As for your comments regarding ATC selection, there have been examples of poor practice that have lead to accidents well before any diversity recruitment requirements were set. If the holes line up, an accident will happen.

Hi Guys,
Well, it seems that you both have formed an opinion that the country doctor's diagnosis at his desk was just as good quality-wise as the city doctor's diagnosis, after he formed a different opinion of what was causing my former member of staff's problem, and had one of those tiny cameras put inside him, to verify that it was indeed the cause of the problem. Beats me how you can hold that opinion.

My wife worked with medical specialists for most of her entire life as a secretary, and was more likely to hear what is going on than the general public does. But she also had the situation when she was living in a regional area and visiting a doctor about a problem she had. On returning to Melbourne, she took the letter from that doctor to the Melbourne doctor who read it, then couldn't contain his laughter, and ran into the next room where his partner was with a patient and said "You have got to read this". Whereupon he did so, and then they were both in fits of laughter. The regional doctor had diagnosed my wife as suffering from menopause - even though she was in her early 30s at the time.

But, if you wish to believe that there is no difference in quality among medical practioners and among ATCs, that is your prerogative.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

Absolutely agree with Quickstatus on country doctors.We are not all stupid and sometimes even get the diagnoses that the smart city doctors miss.One stands out.A fellow was sent from the country hospital I worked at straight from our ED to the University hospital as he had had a convulsion.The smart ED doctors performed a test for heart attacks as they usually do and it was positive.As he had some vague chest pain he had an angiogram and stents placed and sent back to the country hospital with a somewhat sarcastic discharge letter.
I as usual performed my own physical examination.As I bared his chest to examine his heart the very obvious melanoma was seen and his brain scan revealed his secondary.The smart doctors in the city got an even more sarcastic letter about their treatment.
Sure I do get things wrong sometimes as unfortunately all doctors do even the very brightest.So a second opinion is a good idea still.

DrRon - anyone who reads your posts here know that you are one of the sharpest and most focused minds around. I am utterly unsurprised by the example you give.
Regards,
Renato

 

[drron]

Gee how could I not like that post Renato.

 

[dajop]

Yes, the "diverse" candidate has to pass the same stringent exam as an ex-pilot.

So, in your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker?

Similary. which of those two is more likely to have the ready aptitude to hang around for hours with headphones on listening to multiple discussions, and be able to quickly hone on potential problems, and resolve them?

You too are making the assumption that Carson Tucker was talking about "ex commercial pilots" He merely mentioned licensed pilot. Passing the test and the ability perform well and solve problems under pressure might not be something that a recreational pilot is that good at. It might be, but also might not be.

 

[mannej]

Yes, the "diverse" candidate has to pass the same stringent exam as an ex-pilot.

So, in your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker?

Similary. which of those two is more likely to have the ready aptitude to hang around for hours with headphones on listening to multiple discussions, and be able to quickly hone on potential problems, and resolve them?

The medical example I gave was not any way example of how checks and balances work, rather it was an example of difference in quality by two people who had presumably passed the same test. The only check was me offering my wife's advice.
Regards

This is strawman - the ex-starbucks worker may have also been a student at the time, so your question uses false logic.

Hi Guys,
Well, it seems that you both have formed an opinion that the country doctor's diagnosis at his desk was just as good quality-wise as the city doctor's diagnosis, after he formed a different opinion of what was causing my former member of staff's problem, and had one of those tiny cameras put inside him, to verify that it was indeed the cause of the problem. Beats me how you can hold that opinion.

My wife worked with medical specialists for most of her entire life as a secretary, and was more likely to hear what is going on than the general public does. But she also had the situation when she was living in a regional area and visiting a doctor about a problem she had. On returning to Melbourne, she took the letter from that doctor to the Melbourne doctor who read it, then couldn't contain his laughter, and ran into the next room where his partner was with a patient and said "You have got to read this". Whereupon he did so, and then they were both in fits of laughter. The regional doctor had diagnosed my wife as suffering from menopause - even though she was in her early 30s at the time.

But, if you wish to believe that there is no difference in quality among medical practioners and among ATCs, that is your prerogative.
Regards,
Renato

I haven't formed an opinion on the quality of the diagnoses, more your statement that country doctors are poor compared to city doctors. Again, this is strawman. Your wife sounds like a family member of mine, who also worked as a medical secretary. The amount of credence I give her medical opinions is close to nil.

 

[Renato1]

Not going to mince words, I think Fox "news" is right winged sensationalist garbage. They know their audience and they know fear sells.

That now said, I have no issues traveling to the USA (I'm there right now), but I couldn't care less if fox news scares others off from traveling here.

Only problem is - the American Thinker article that I linked to and then the Forbes 2016 article that dajop linked to, supports the substance of the Fox News story. Reality doesn't really care whether you think facts are garbage, based solely on your unsupported assertion in relation to who presented those facts.
Regards,
Renato.

 

[Quickstatus]

Is the ATC job performance only based on exams as Renato1 assumes?

So many professions these days have a barrier of entry which is not only the exam. There are aptitude tests, interviews, exams, referee opinions, opinions of peers.

Just because someone has a CV that says Starbucks does not mean that person will never have an aptitude for anything greater than Starbucks.

When I was in School my careers adviser told me not to pursue entrance into my current career because based on my school results up to that point in time I did not have the aptitude for it.

I return to the immigrant with English as second language who was a gardener. How can anyone say that that person could never be a plastics and reconstructive surgeon. But he did.

Then there was a ward nurse who became an obstetrician - she got a leg up from the department of medicine heads at the hospital for her to study medicine. Why, because they saw an aptitude in her (and this was prior to any of the gender carp that currently goes on)

Never underestimate someone's potential because of their current station in life.

So lets see what Airservices Australia have to say about Australian trainee ATC:


So You only really need to have finished school...

Then is there a test?. No there are a series of assessments:



Oh and how could I forget.
Next year an ex hospital porter is going to graduate as a Consultant Cardiologist. Go figure.

 

[Renato1]

I
It doesn’t matter who is more likely to pass the exam. All that matters is that those who do pass are allowed to practice. Those who don’t pass are weeded out. The ex pilot and ex starbucks worker are therefore in exactly the same position when it comes to dealing with air traffic.

Many exams for this type of profession are not simply ‘pass at 50%’. You need to ‘pass’ at a very high level... up in the 80s or 90s (or higher).

The ex-pilot and the ex-Starbucks worker are not in the same position - the ex-pilot had his or her application rejected.

Would the ex-Starbucks worker have scored 80% and the ex-pilot scored 95%? Or the other way round?
Nobody knows and that's the problem.

Under the old regime the assumption as to who would get the higher score would have been pretty obvious. But suddenly, as a result of a meeting with the Reverand Jesse Jackson the old assumption is thrown out and a new one adopted without any empirical supporting evidence as to why that should have been the case.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Quickstatus]

The ex-pilot and the ex-Starbucks worker are not in the same position - the ex-pilot had his or her application rejected.

Would the ex-Starbucks worker have scored 80% and the ex-pilot scored 95%? Or the other way round?
Nobody knows and that's the problem.

Under the old regime the assumption as to who would get the higher score would have been pretty obvious. But suddenly, as a result of a meeting with the Reverand Jesse Jackson the old assumption is thrown out and a new one adopted without any empirical supporting evidence as to why that should have been the case.
Regards,
Renato

Nobody knows - i totally agree. But isn't the barrier to entry to same whatever the applicant station in life or CV is?. Is there empirical evidence to say that certain groups should be barred from application because of their station in life?

 

[TomVexille]

Having actually considered applying to become an ATC in the past, I believe that @Quickstatus is correct. The prerequisite is essentially English language skills and they weed out anyone without the natural aptitude. There's no other requirements so IMO the article is just fear mongering that drives views and therefore ad revenue.

And just to stoke @Renato1's paranoia, at least in the US, the senior and more experienced controllers usually work at small airports with no commercial traffic as it is far less stressful than controlling a large airport, thus leaving those jobs to the less experienced.

 

[Renato1]

This is strawman - the ex-starbucks worker may have also been a student at the time, so your question uses false logic.



I haven't formed an opinion on the quality of the diagnoses, more your statement that country doctors are poor compared to city doctors. Again, this is strawman. Your wife sounds like a family member of mine, who also worked as a medical secretary. The amount of credence I give her medical opinions is close to nil.

Thanks, but I have no idea where the straw man is that you are referring to. None-the-less, I will accomodate you.
In your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker who may also been a student at the time?

Interesting to see that you give no creedence to the opinions of two people who have had much experience and iteraction with others in a certain field, because you say so.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Quickstatus]

Having actually considered applying to become an ATC in the past, I believe that @Quickstatus is correct. The prerequisite is essentially English language skills and they weed out anyone without the natural aptitude. There's no other requirements so IMO the article is just fear mongering that drives views and therefore ad revenue.

And just to stoke @Renato1's paranoia, at least in the US, the senior and more experienced controllers usually work at small airports with no commercial traffic as it is far less stressful than controlling a large airport, thus leaving those jobs to the less experienced.

AirServices Australia does not seem to indicate a Spoken English language skill requirement but i suspect this is a requirement from CASA
Trainee air traffic controllers | Airservices




Geez bringing up the country vs city. Therefore country ATC not as good?

 

[Renato1]

Having actually considered applying to become an ATC in the past, I believe that @Quickstatus is correct. The prerequisite is essentially English language skills and they weed out anyone without the natural aptitude. There's no other requirements so IMO the article is just fear mongering that drives views and therefore ad revenue.

You miss the point of the articles - they are weeding out from the selection process the people previously perceived as those most likely to have had the most of those natural aptitudes. Thus they don't get opportunity to be selected for and undergo that weeding out process, where they would either shine or be turffed out.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Quickstatus]

Thanks, but I have no idea where the straw man is that you are referring to. None-the-less, I will accomodate you.
In your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker who may also been a student at the time?

Interesting to see that you give no creedence to the opinions of two people who have had much experience and iteraction with others in a certain field, because you say so.
Regards,
Renato

But you give credence to a media report (whatever the outlet)?

 

[mannej]

Thanks, but I have no idea where the straw man is that you are referring to. None-the-less, I will accomodate you.
In your opinion, who would be most likely to just pass the exam and who would be most likely to easily sail through the exam - an ex-pilot or an ex-Starbucks worker who may also been a student at the time?

That is a question I cannot answer. You are over simplifying the question to suit your strawman logic.

Interesting to see that you give no creedence to the opinions of two people who have had much experience and iteraction with others in a certain field, because you say so.
Regards,
Renato

Just because someone has had interaction with someone in a certain field, it doesn't make them an expert. My family member is an example of that. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[Renato1]

Nobody knows - i totally agree. But isn't the barrier to entry to same whatever the applicant station in life or CV is?. Is there empirical evidence to say that certain groups should be barred from application because of their station in life?

No there isn't - which is the point of Carlson's two pieces - why are groups of people previously perceived as most likely to make the best ATCs now effectively having a barrier put in place to stop them entering the field. Which was also the point made by the lawyer representing the person who has had that barrier placed on him or her.

The mere fact of a selection criteria existing will be a barrier to entry for numerous individuals who do not meet it. But here we have a new biographical criteria preventing people from being assessed against the selection criteria.
Regards,
Renato

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Would the ex-Starbucks worker have scored 80% and the ex-pilot scored 95%? Or the other way round?
Nobody knows and that's the problem.

Actually, they would know. Because they could compare the results before and after the implementation of the diversity program.

But again, it’s irrelevant. If everyone has to achieve a 95% score in order to ‘pass’, then whether they are a starbucks worker or former pilot, it makes no difference. They have all met the same base requirement and a re qualified as air traffic controllers.

The Fox story was based on no facts. It appealed to their target audience (and it is a very specific audience) by running a story based solely on incredulity. The questions and scoring on the aptitude test are so incredible that it ‘must’ be bad. But where’s the facts?

 

[TomVexille]

AirServices Australia does not seem to indicate a Spoken English language skill requirement but i suspect this is a requirement from CASA
Trainee air traffic controllers | Airservices


View attachment 128337

Geez bringing up the country vs city. Therefore country ATC not as good?

Nah, country ATC way better than city

You miss the point of the articles - they are weeding out from the selection process the people previously perceived as those most likely to have had the most of those natural aptitudes. Thus they don't get opportunity to be selected for and undergo that weeding out process, where they would either shine or be turffed out.
Regards,
Renato

Or you could see it as they are actually just giving everyone across the board the same selection criteria and taking the best, instead of automaticlly discounting anyone that didn't fit their ex-pilot profile previously, which is way more likely to be closer to the truth.

 

[drron]

What a pity that this has degenerated into the left v right political bun flight.
Just because something is on Fox news or in the Australian doesn't make it wrong.The basis of the story was there was a change in selection criteria for ATCs in the USA in 2014.That is correct.sure it was sensationalised but I find it hard to recall a news report about airline safety or incident in any media that isn't.

My real concern here is that with this change was there a monitoring process in place to make sure it wasn't causing any safety concerns.Reports that there were changes to incident reporting at nearly the same time and changes to the selection process in 2016 makes me worry that there was a monitoring system in place and there were problems.If that was not the case then it really worries me that such changes aren't monitored for adverse effects.

And it still wont stop me from flying to or in the USA.

 

[dajop]

What a pity that this has degenerated into the left v right political bun flight.
Just because something is on Fox news or in the Australian doesn't make it wrong.The

...

My real concern here is that with this change was there a monitoring process in place to make sure it wasn't causing any safety concerns.Reports that there were changes to incident reporting at nearly the same time and changes to the selection process in 2016 makes me worry that there was a monitoring system in place and there were problems.

I agree we shouldn't automatically assume that just because it was on Fox News it is wrong, but there is a lot missing from the story (for example the 2016 changes, which took me less than 20 seconds to find on google), therefore it doesn't seem to be particularly well researched, or they knew about the changes but didn't tell people about them as it didn't fit with the narrative. It is hard to tell if it is pushing the story because of genuine safety concerns or whether it is just philosophical/political opposition to to diversity hiring, plus a party aggrieved by the process. Even the 2016 changes, were they because of failure of the hiring process or were they because of the change in control of congress that gave one party control of both houses after 2014 elections (and the FAA needed to be reauthorised in 2016)?

Journalism is becoming ever so partisan, I just don't know what to believe any more. Even today, reading a Washington Post puff piece (re posted in The Age) examining Trumps' propensity to pardon people. My first question was how many did Obama and George W Bush pardon in their tenure, and how did they choose to pardon people? But that is simply not addressed, I would have though an obvious question, which led me to conclude the article was more anti-trump propaganda, in the way Carson Tucker's usual stories see mto be anti-liberal propaganda. We as a community are so easily manipulated, and it is a shame that people along the political spectrum don't see this, or just don't want to see it.

Full disclosure: I will admit that Rob Sitch, etc and their Frontline program in the 90's did make me ever so cynical about whatever I see on TV (and on youtube) or read in the papers.