Virgin Australia Financially Secure? [Now in Voluntary Administration]

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It is an interesting proposition and certainly very popular one - everyone is talking about it.

The challenge with that strategy now, though it worked before is: Jetstar.

Back then Jetstar was still fledgling, a handful of planes and not much penetration.

Today it is a large airline in its own right, a cost base far lower than VA (they would have to hack their own feet and arms off to get back there - reports have them equal to QF mainline now).

To get back to a true LCC would mean facing off with Jetstar and also basically handing all premium pax back to Qantas on a silver platter.
Agree, this is why they moved through the Game Change program. The creation of JQ and improvements in the performance of QF ate into both sides of the then DJ Godfrey New World Carrier.

Part of this would be driven by if there is an airline investor and what model they want - if it's someone like NH or DL they may want to retain J for connectivity.

Having J class (though expensive) shouldnt be looked at in isolation as it drives revenue through a frequent flyer program. Using points for economy redemptions doesn't provide the same effect as having the lure of business class seats available (even though they may not be that available).

The solution could be the "light" fares - which is moving the tiger price point down the back of the bus and unbundling the product into, dare I say it, seat, seat+bag, works and works deluxe (J).
 
Can't believe I'm posting News corp rubbish but its just to demonstrate the can of worms Branson opened by shrieking and parading about (you don't have to click on it and give Murdoch $, the headline and pic says it all!)

The Government will have the public on side now and their decision justified. Not that it really matters now, a private captial injection will save VA, I will put money on it. Then VA mark 2, QF, REX etc can lobby for more industry assistance as a whole which will have a lot more traction.

 
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It's still a private sector entity and the government has clearly stated that market based solutions must be used, establishing a precedent.

While you have more legal knowledge than I do, if I was a bondholder losing billions of dollars I'd be looking at the public pronouncements of the Government (and there has been a lot of them!) quite closely.
the only issue being that I don’t think that precedent is a legally binding one. Previous Govs made seemingly endless bailouts to Holden/GM and Ford, but I can’t see any relating to Toyota specifically before they fell. That doesn’t mean Toyota could expect one or threaten to sue if they didn’t get one. Ex-gratia payments have no legal obligation attached

also, timing has a lot to do with it, qantas asking for money six months down the track is remarkably different to VA who couldn’t last a couple of months because of their own historical debt.

seeing that some bond holders have already lawyered up with Corrs for the administration, I wish them good luck, but with most legal battles, I don’t think anyone will win but the lawyers.
 
Agree, this is why they moved through the Game Change program. The creation of JQ and improvements in the performance of QF ate into both sides of the then DJ Godfrey New World Carrier.

Part of this would be driven by if there is an airline investor and what model they want - if it's someone like NH or DL they may want to retain J for connectivity.

Having J class (though expensive) shouldnt be looked at in isolation as it drives revenue through a frequent flyer program. Using points for economy redemptions doesn't provide the same effect as having the lure of business class seats available (even though they may not be that available).

The solution could be the "light" fares - which is moving the tiger price point down the back of the bus and unbundling the product into, dare I say it, seat, seat+bag, works and works deluxe (J).
Thanks for the perspectives. The world has moved on but I'm not sure J is needed to make a frequent flyer program attractive. It's really only the knowledgeable that appreciate its real value, for most people a "free" flight trumps paying hard cash.

Anyway hope something comes out of the VA debacle, eg haircut for the debtholders and / or turned into equity, plane lessors see commercial reality and take the planes back or discount their rates etc so a new VA can arise. Competition is good and we don't want QF being an effective monopoly. Look at NZ if you want to see what thats like
 
Thanks for the perspectives. The world has moved on but I'm not sure J is needed to make a frequent flyer program attractive. It's really only the knowledgeable that appreciate its real value, for most people a "free" flight trumps paying hard cash.

And given VAi is almost a certain casualty of any restructure, is short haul J on a 737 even that attractive anyway?
 
And given VAi is almost a certain casualty of any restructure, is short haul J on a 737 even that attractive anyway?
It's broadly comparable to what QF have on their 737 flights and I'm sure certain corporate accounts will require J to be available for directors and C-level execs. If you dump this cabin you will most likely lose a lot of that account along with it.

One thing they definitely must not do is reintroduce PE. That was a disasterous foray into Euro-Business style seating which flew empty almost all the time.

If the airline makes it back into the sky they also need to consider the costs of removing J seating from the owned aircraft. I think a lot of planes will be flying empty for a while so if you can't fill Y there's no rush.
 
Depends on the price as always. For short haul recliners with decent AV are fine for me (don't bar me from AFF for saying that)
The A330 J seat to Perth was over the top for a domestic service (having had the luxury of flying it a few times) - those aircraft must have spewed money out of the back of their engines...
 
Summary from an AFR article today

Former Virgin Blue chairman Chris Corrigan, who was in charge of the airline when it was one of the most profitable in the world, says the new owners of Virgin Australia need to go back to basics or be replaced by a new airline.

Given his history probably worth listening to.

Well considering most people wont have the money they use to have to splash around on fancy things it would make sense for VA to become more of a no-frills airline. It doesn't need to become a TigerAir but somewhere in between VA and Tiger.
 
OK, this is my estimation of the future (key points):
Virgin Group and all entities bought out by a consortium for between $3b - $5b.
This would including at least $1billion for Virgin Australia to have as cash at bank.
Tigerair will go.
It will probably carry circa $2billion in debt (cause the debt isn't going to be fully wiped out). Ideally servicable in AUD at a low interest rate over about 5 year term.
There will be some sort of state government relief, in regards to the HQ location.
I expect some aircraft to exit the fleet, mainly A320's and a few B737's.
I wouldn't be surprised if the A330's go. However, I think there is hope for the A330's and B777's to be put into a package which allows the transition to something along the lines of the B787. This could also leverage cancellation of the B737 MAX order. This assumes some international flying which I expect will be to the USA and New Zealand.
There's a high chance that some F100's could be redeployed to Eastern States to replace the Alliance deal. There's a chance that Virgin may have Alliance conduct the maintenance etc. With new employee contracts etc it should be cheaper to run these services themselves if they are viable.
Virgin Australia will remain the company name. Though if they did rebrand I wouldn't expect much change to the brand. IE the lounges will remain the same etc.
Travel Banks etc will be protected. This is vital from a consumer perspective and a PR win.
Velocity status will remain. Though I think point redemptions for flying will go up slightly between 5 - 10%.
 
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If Etihad are involved in the recap, do not discount the A350s they have paid for and currently have sitting in western France gathering dust - if international is considered important to VAs future
 
Well considering most people wont have the money they use to have to splash around on fancy things it would make sense for VA to become more of a no-frills airline. It doesn't need to become a TigerAir but somewhere in between VA and Tiger.

Do we see that as offering a short haul product that's similar to legacy carriers in Europe and the US, such as DL, AA, BA, LH etc. Or do we see that more like the DJ product with Biz, like Jet Blue or WestJet?

What is clear the path forward (if any) is not to continue to try to emulate Qantas.
 
Virgin Group and all entities bought out by a consortium for between $3b - $5b.
This would including at least $1billion for Virgin Australia to have as cash at bank.
Tigerair will go.
It will probably carry circa $2billion in debt (cause the debt isn't going to be fully wiped out). Ideally servicable in AUD at a low interest rate over about 5 year term.

Can you clarify, please? Virgin's debt reported as A$5 bill. If your scenario has $2 bill debt going forward, is your 'buy-out' figure of $3bill- $5bill including $3 bill of debt repayment by the new owners? So the 'equity' value is between $0 and $2 bill?

I wouldn't think any new party would want to repay debt with their cash straight-up. More likely a restructure of existing debt, with certain guarantees. But difficult with no certainty as to when the airline gets going again. But then, debt holders get b-all if it turns into a liquidation, so I guess they are amenable to a long term restructure, with some guarantees. Maybe convert some debt to equity?
 
One minute you’re saying AJ is popping a celebratory cork but 10 posts earlier youre of the opinion QF is about to be a failed entity.

Not everyone likes QF and you’re obviously one of those.

But QF has a balance sheet X times strother than Virgin with a different ownership structure and has already outlasted the fatal injuries virgin gave itself trying to keep up with QF.
My posts are consistent. If VA does not resurface then that makes Q's weak hand a little stronger - but still a weak hand.

I have no grudge just that companies should be honest & transparent in what they do so that current & potential shareholders can make a fully informed decision. BTW - that is the law believe it or not.

AJ & Q are on a hiding to nothing, and know it. Their one trump card is the "perception" carried over as Australia's flag carrier etc. Post CV - their cash flow is very negative, in the hundreds of millions a month imho. Their balance sheet is a wonder of financial wizardry that may not face scrutiny. This was revealed on their write-down of the international fleet in 2013/14:


"There had been speculation for nearly a decade that Qantas' fleet was overvalued. The airline said on Thursday the writedowns were triggered by the decision to split its international business from the rest of the operations, because the asset values were then no longer shielded by the surpluses in other divisions."

&

"Following the writedown, the carrying value of the fleet will be more reflective of the current market value, and depreciation charges will be reduced by $200 million a year, the company said."

Now is definitely not the time to be found to be over-valuing.

In doing a plane by plane reconciliation at the time - it became clear that Q seems to have a unique approach to 'valuing' their aircraft', and the movements had an uncanny correlation with reported P&L in a most inventive way. After all, it does seem unusual to have a 21 year old B747 valued in the balance sheet at more than it cost when purchased in the early 1990s DESPITE claiming depn on it every year?

Especially when Q states it uses straight line depreciation on planes & parts over a range of 2 to 20 years.

Is it a Ponzi scheme of sorts? Who knows but 1 + 1 ALWAYS = 2 eventually. In Australia we have a long record of Top 100 companies getting their annual reports signed off by the external auditors year after year - and the company then goes under often accompanied by an 'irregularity' in their accounts.

Looking at the cash flow is normally a good guide. Q raised around $1.4bn by selling of the remaining Terminal leases for Brisbane, Melbourne & Sydney. Over the same time they bought back over 30% of outstanding shares. Looking at their balance sheet and off-balance sheet liabilities - does not fit the description of looking very strong.

Their Earnings per share (adjusted effect of for the buy back) has actually fallen around 30%.

The 30%+ buying back of shares, ceteris paribis, boosts the EPS by more than 42%. Statutory EPS has risen from 49 cps to 55cps since July 2015 to 30 June 2019, a little over 10% increase.

In the year to June 2019, statutory eps was described as flat despite shares on issue falling by 7%. The buy back would have increased EPS by 7.5%, and this period saw the profit on selling its Melbourne lease in the 2018/19 financial year for $355m realising a profit of $141m. Perhaps more disturbing was that Q wrote-back the value of their Helloworld Travel shareholding after managing to sell 2 million shares @ $5.50 - Q reversed its 'impairment charge' on its remaining holding by $43m - so all up increasing its profit by $184m (around 13% of NPBT).

[The current Helloworld Travel share price is around $1.30 having traded as low as $0.67 recently.]

Yet despite all these one-off boosts the EPS was flat. A bit like how Australia's GDP per capita has been falling but total GDP (due to the net 200,000 annual immigration) had been growing perhaps?

Q's cupboard is pretty bare with almost no 'hollow' logs left, and looking at its fleet carrying value suggests that despite writing down the A380s in 2013/14 massively, they may have been revalued (despite claiming annual depreciation) back to around what they were prior to the writedown. If you are interested try sending an email to Q investor realations and ask how much the Q A380 fleet is valued at in the balance sheet as I cannot quite work it out.

AJ & Q's only hope was/is that VA does not get resurrected due to the rest of the world's airlines cash flow woes. Then as Australia's sole remaining domestic/international airline - the Fed Govt will step in to provide whatever they require - or I could be totally wrong.

Q has/operates a fleet of around 314 aircraft with over 100 the basis of their international fleet. Given the well publicised issues with all but Emirates A380s then the BS valuation of these may well get questioned by the external auditor. The first two A380s to reach 10 years (operated by SIA on lease) despite the positive talk encouraged by Airbus - could not find any operator wanting them.

Subsequently when it was revealed that the ex-SIA planes had been sent to be dismantled for parts there were many articles about how the parts where worth more than the sum of the whole etc etc. Subsequently revealed that buyers were proving harder to find for the parts and the 2 A380s were written down substantially more.

Post CV - a number of airlines have parked their A380s with the likelihood that they will not be put back into service. The cost of maintaining them to (say FAA) standards requires between 238 to 407 man hours of maintenance every 48 hours depending on their age for example. Given the A380 requires the highest load factor of any widebody to break even - there are many other planes that will go back into service before A380s.

Air NZ is mothballing their B777s (except one converted temporarily to freight by taking out it's seats) until at least April 2021.

Running the numbers, for some airlines, it seems that retiring the A380s is cheaper than maintaining them for 6 months or more.

In Q's case who knows.

Q has very large fixed costs for its international fleet, plus substantial parking expenses in Australia & overseas (due to lack of space within Australia), Australian & overseas terminal leases (including Q Club lounges etc), locked in fuel hedges at 100% for 2019/20 at much higher levels for perhaps 4x as much fuel as they are currently using - and no place to store it. This will not be cheap.

As of 30 June 2019 they had unearned revenue of just under $6 billion as liabilities of which approx $3.5bn is ticket sales and around $2.5bn of QFF points allocated but yet to be redeemed. Q restricted QFF redemptions back on March 20th despite saying there was no run on points redemption;

"Qantas has limited purchases through its loyalty store to two items of each product every day in response to "high retail demand". The airline - which says there has not been a "run" on points - has told members the limit was to "ensure the continued availability of products to as many members as possible"

Against this Q had around $2bn of cash. Since then share buybacks have chewed through a good portion of the cash as has the interim div payment and the impending final of around $200m.

Time will tell how this all pans out - but Q isn't as safe as the spin may say or many hope. If there's a run on their QFF points then their credit rating is likely to go below investment grade aka become junk.

Of course, international flying might recommence with 78% plus loads from 1 July 2020 but I don't think so. Similarly I don't see any of the European Govts, Asian nor the US doing Q any favours once borders eventually reopen.
 
Certainly, if someone else (say, client or company) is paying 🙂 or maybe on points ...
Yeah, I occasionally enjoy upgrading VA HBA - MEL flights on points. It’s a bit of a novelty for someone who usually travels Y.
 
OK, this is my estimation of the future (key points):
Virgin Group and all entities bought out by a consortium for between $3b - $5b.
This would including at least $1billion for Virgin Australia to have as cash at bank.
Tigerair will go.
It will probably carry circa $2billion in debt (cause the debt isn't going to be fully wiped out). Ideally servicable in AUD at a low interest rate over about 5 year term.
There will be some sort of state government relief, in regards to the HQ location.
I expect some aircraft to exit the fleet, mainly A320's and a few B737's.
I wouldn't be surprised if the A330's go. However, I think there is hope for the A330's and B777's to be put into a package which allows the transition to something along the lines of the B787. This could also leverage cancellation of the B737 MAX order. This assumes some international flying which I expect will be to the USA and New Zealand.
There's a high chance that some F100's could be redeployed to Eastern States to replace the Alliance deal. There's a chance that Virgin may have Alliance conduct the maintenance etc. With new employee contracts etc it should be cheaper to run these services themselves if they are viable.
Virgin Australia will remain the company name. Though if they did rebrand I wouldn't expect much change to the brand. IE the lounges will remain the same etc.
Travel Banks etc will be protected. This is vital from a consumer perspective and a PR win.
Velocity status will remain. Though I think point redemptions for flying will go up slightly between 5 - 10%.

Interesting post, so you think VAi will remain, really?
 
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